[Sursound] Individualized HRTFs (Augustine Leudar)

Discussion:

Gernot von Schultzendorff

2017-11-22 23:13:59 UTC

Looking through IDA informations there seem to be two different ways to perform the individual scans:
- "Using their smartphone’s camera, users will be able to scan themselves, gathering sufficient data for IDA Audio and Genelec to accurately 3D model and then create the unique HRTF filter set for personal rendering of 3D audio." [https://www.genelec.com/genelec-and-ida-audio-redefine-immersive-3d-audio-professional-headphone-users <https://www.genelec.com/genelec-and-ida-audio-redefine-immersive-3d-audio-professional-headphone-users>]
- "An IDA 3D scan can be performed at a licensed IDA ScanStation on a variety of scanners, including structured light, laser, and photogrammetry scanners." [http://idaaudio.com/professionals/ <http://idaaudio.com/professionals/>]

Regarding the import of SOFA files into the ambiX binaural player the Princeton University 3-D Audio & Applied Acoustics Lab has developed the SABRE toolkit specifically for this task (https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/SABREToolkit.html <https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/SABREToolkit.html>). Requires MATLAB knowledge and decisions about interpolation "when measured HRTFs are not available at the desired grid positions". Anyone having experiences with this toolkit?

--
Gernot

On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 09:59:36 +0000
Let us know how you get on with height.... I also wonder how much ground
and shoulder reflections will count and if subjective visual/cognitive
assessments of environment affect localisation in a significant way -
interesting to see. If anthropometrics alone are enough.

I had mine done last week, after a few attempts at shooting a suitable
video file (it looks easy to do, but it's not). The resulting 3D model
is also not as good as the ones shown in the promotional video, so I
will probably try again because I suspect that a better video would
help to produce a better 3D model, therefore a better HRTF profile.
I'm still in the process of evaluating the SOFA file I received (in my
free time, something I should continue tomorrow). So far the results
are very interesting; it does work. I will try to compare it with some
generic HRTFs, and I will report here.
One of my problem is the lack of software to use a SOFA file. My
evaluation tool is now JSAmbisonics, because it's free (as in speech).
I guess I could also use the ambiX binaural player, but that would be
more work.
--
Marc
On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 00:07:59 +0000

Looks interesting - anthropometric approach.
On Saturday, 4 November 2017, Len Moskowitz

great sound design but no cigar on the binaural front - thats
really not

going to get solved until a quick and convenient way of measuring
HRTFs is designed - I have several in case any millionaires out
there are interested

idaaudio.com <http://idaaudio.com/>

http://youtu.be/pxf28tinxZg
Individualized HRTFs, using a smartphone, for under $500.
Someone I trust had his done, and he says it finally allowed him to
disambiguate between front and rear.
Core Sound LLC
www.core-sound.com <http://www.core-sound.com/>
Home of TetraMic and OctoMic
_______________________________________________
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--
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Politis Archontis

2017-11-23 09:50:28 UTC

Permalink

Hi Gernot,

I haven’t used the toolkit, but I don’t see the reason for HRTF interpolation in a predefined grid - if you generate the spherical harmonic filters for whatever HRTF set you have without interpolation, then all you need in AmbiX is a binaural decoding configuration file with a (N+1)^2 x (N+1)^2 decoding matrix that is a unity matrix (zeros everywhere and ones in the diagonal), along with the (N+1)^2 stereo WAV files of the filters you generated (where N is the order you are going for).

Regards,
Archontis Politis

On 23 Nov 2017, at 01:13, Gernot von Schultzendorff <***@saalakustik.de<mailto:***@saalakustik.de>> wrote:

Looking through IDA informations there seem to be two different ways to perform the individual scans:
- "Using their smartphone’s camera, users will be able to scan themselves, gathering sufficient data for IDA Audio and Genelec to accurately 3D model and then create the unique HRTF filter set for personal rendering of 3D audio." [https://www.genelec.com/genelec-and-ida-audio-redefine-immersive-3d-audio-professional-headphone-users <https://www.genelec.com/genelec-and-ida-audio-redefine-immersive-3d-audio-professional-headphone-users>]
- "An IDA 3D scan can be performed at a licensed IDA ScanStation on a variety of scanners, including structured light, laser, and photogrammetry scanners." [http://idaaudio.com/professionals/ <http://idaaudio.com/professionals/>]

Regarding the import of SOFA files into the ambiX binaural player the Princeton University 3-D Audio & Applied Acoustics Lab has developed the SABRE toolkit specifically for this task (https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/SABREToolkit.html <https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/SABREToolkit.html>). Requires MATLAB knowledge and decisions about interpolation "when measured HRTFs are not available at the desired grid positions". Anyone having experiences with this toolkit?
--
Gernot

On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 09:59:36 +0000
Augustine Leudar <***@gmail.com<mailto:***@gmail.com> <mailto:***@gmail.com>> wrote:

Let us know how you get on with height.... I also wonder how much ground
and shoulder reflections will count and if subjective visual/cognitive
assessments of environment affect localisation in a significant way -
interesting to see. If anthropometrics alone are enough.

On Sunday, 5 November 2017, Marc Lavall?e <***@hacklava.net<mailto:***@hacklava.net> <mailto:***@hacklava.net>> wrote:

I had mine done last week, after a few attempts at shooting a suitable
video file (it looks easy to do, but it's not). The resulting 3D model
is also not as good as the ones shown in the promotional video, so I
will probably try again because I suspect that a better video would
help to produce a better 3D model, therefore a better HRTF profile.

I'm still in the process of evaluating the SOFA file I received (in my
free time, something I should continue tomorrow). So far the results
are very interesting; it does work. I will try to compare it with some
generic HRTFs, and I will report here.

One of my problem is the lack of software to use a SOFA file. My
evaluation tool is now JSAmbisonics, because it's free (as in speech).
I guess I could also use the ambiX binaural player, but that would be
more work.
--
Marc

On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 00:07:59 +0000
Augustine Leudar <***@gmail.com<mailto:***@gmail.com> <mailto:***@gmail.com> <javascript:;>> wrote:

Looks interesting - anthropometric approach.

On Saturday, 4 November 2017, Len Moskowitz
<***@optonline.net<mailto:***@optonline.net> <mailto:***@optonline.net> <javascript:;>> wrote:

Augustine Leudar wrote:

great sound design but no cigar on the binaural front - thats
really not
going to get solved until a quick and convenient way of measuring
HRTFs is designed - I have several in case any millionaires out
there are interested

At the recent AES Exhibition in NYC, IDA was shown:

idaaudio.com<http://idaaudio.com> <http://idaaudio.com/>
http://youtu.be/pxf28tinxZg http://youtu.be/pxf28tinxZg

Individualized HRTFs, using a smartphone, for under $500.

Someone I trust had his done, and he says it finally allowed him to
disambiguate between front and rear.

Len Moskowitz (***@core-sound.com<mailto:***@core-sound.com> <mailto:***@core-sound.com> <javascript:;>)
Core Sound LLC
www.core-sound.com<http://www.core-sound.com> <http://www.core-sound.com/>
Home of TetraMic and OctoMic

_______________________________________________
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here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.

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edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Augustine Leudar

2017-11-23 10:00:15 UTC

Permalink

Does it measure ITDs and ILDs as well or just the Pinna ? I would like to
try it anyway - but retain slight skepticism for now......

Post by Politis Archontis
Hi Gernot,
I haven’t used the toolkit, but I don’t see the reason for HRTF
interpolation in a predefined grid - if you generate the spherical harmonic
filters for whatever HRTF set you have without interpolation, then all you
need in AmbiX is a binaural decoding configuration file with a (N+1)^2 x
(N+1)^2 decoding matrix that is a unity matrix (zeros everywhere and ones
in the diagonal), along with the (N+1)^2 stereo WAV files of the filters
you generated (where N is the order you are going for).
Regards,
Archontis Politis
On 23 Nov 2017, at 01:13, Gernot von Schultzendorff <
Looking through IDA informations there seem to be two different ways to
- "Using their smartphone’s camera, users will be able to scan themselves,
gathering sufficient data for IDA Audio and Genelec to accurately 3D model
and then create the unique HRTF filter set for personal rendering of 3D
audio." [https://www.genelec.com/genelec-and-ida-audio-
redefine-immersive-3d-audio-professional-headphone-users <
https://www.genelec.com/genelec-and-ida-audio-redefine-immersive-3d-audio-
professional-headphone-users>]
- "An IDA 3D scan can be performed at a licensed IDA ScanStation on a
variety of scanners, including structured light, laser, and photogrammetry
scanners." [http://idaaudio.com/professionals/ <http://idaaudio.com/
professionals/>]
Regarding the import of SOFA files into the ambiX binaural player the
Princeton University 3-D Audio & Applied Acoustics Lab has developed the
SABRE toolkit specifically for this task (https://www.princeton.edu/
3D3A/SABREToolkit.html <https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/SABREToolkit.html>).
Requires MATLAB knowledge and decisions about interpolation "when measured
HRTFs are not available at the desired grid positions". Anyone having
experiences with this toolkit?
--
Gernot
On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 09:59:36 +0000
Let us know how you get on with height.... I also wonder how much ground
and shoulder reflections will count and if subjective visual/cognitive
assessments of environment affect localisation in a significant way -
interesting to see. If anthropometrics alone are enough.
I had mine done last week, after a few attempts at shooting a suitable
video file (it looks easy to do, but it's not). The resulting 3D model
is also not as good as the ones shown in the promotional video, so I
will probably try again because I suspect that a better video would
help to produce a better 3D model, therefore a better HRTF profile.
I'm still in the process of evaluating the SOFA file I received (in my
free time, something I should continue tomorrow). So far the results
are very interesting; it does work. I will try to compare it with some
generic HRTFs, and I will report here.
One of my problem is the lack of software to use a SOFA file. My
evaluation tool is now JSAmbisonics, because it's free (as in speech).
I guess I could also use the ambiX binaural player, but that would be
more work.
--
Marc
On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 00:07:59 +0000
Looks interesting - anthropometric approach.
On Saturday, 4 November 2017, Len Moskowitz
great sound design but no cigar on the binaural front - thats
really not
going to get solved until a quick and convenient way of measuring
HRTFs is designed - I have several in case any millionaires out
there are interested
idaaudio.com<http://idaaudio.com> <http://idaaudio.com/>
http://youtu.be/pxf28tinxZg <https://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=pxf28tinxZg>
Individualized HRTFs, using a smartphone, for under $500.
Someone I trust had his done, and he says it finally allowed him to
disambiguate between front and rear.
Core Sound LLC
www.core-sound.com<http://www.core-sound.com> <http://www.core-sound.com/>
Home of TetraMic and OctoMic
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound <
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound> - unsubscribe
here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound <
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound> - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Politis Archontis

2017-11-23 10:15:30 UTC

Permalink

I had my head & shoulders scanned in the past and my HRTFs produced by IDA have worked very well for me.
Unless they have changed their approach, and as far as I know, they do not measure features or try to match anthropometric dimensions to HRTFs in a database (which is still problematic since matching of specific anthropometric features to the fine structure of the HRTF is still an open research question), instead they do a full computational acoustic simulation of the HRTFs that takes into account the whole scan as it is.

Regards,
Archontis Politis

Post by Augustine Leudar
Does it measure ITDs and ILDs as well or just the Pinna ? I would like to
try it anyway - but retain slight skepticism for now......

Antti Vanne

2017-11-23 12:08:43 UTC

Permalink

Hi,

I can confirm that we (at IDA) do the acoustic simulation for the
torso+head+pinnae mesh, using the exact anatomy of the individual. Pinnae
are quite important parts and that's why we show comparison between the
actual pinna and reconstructed one in the demo video since we're a bit
proud of how well the 3d reconstruction works on such small details and
cavities. Based on our experience there is pinna features that would
require special measurement instruments if there wasn't 3d scanning
possibility.

We've had very good feedback of mobile scanned HRTFs so far. One of the
people even had a 1680 direction HRTF measured acoustically for comparison.
Both measured and IDA simulated perform equally well.

I'm happy to answer any questions regarding IDA service.

On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 12:15 PM, Politis Archontis <

Post by Politis Archontis
I had my head & shoulders scanned in the past and my HRTFs produced by IDA
have worked very well for me.
Unless they have changed their approach, and as far as I know, they do not
measure features or try to match anthropometric dimensions to HRTFs in a
database (which is still problematic since matching of specific
anthropometric features to the fine structure of the HRTF is still an open
research question), instead they do a full computational acoustic
simulation of the HRTFs that takes into account the whole scan as it is.
Regards,
Archontis Politis

Post by Augustine Leudar
Does it measure ITDs and ILDs as well or just the Pinna ? I would like to
try it anyway - but retain slight skepticism for now......
On 23 November 2017 at 09:50, Politis Archontis <

Post by Politis Archontis
Hi Gernot,
I haven’t used the toolkit, but I don’t see the reason for HRTF
interpolation in a predefined grid - if you generate the spherical

harmonic