[Sursound] Twirling 720 Microphone

I got mine today too. Did not like the capsule alignment; it is 45 degrees off. It is usb 3 mini connector so I have to find an adaptor. In the meantime, I plugged it into my windows phone and it detected the mic, but not as a four channel device. I have the twirling software, so if I get to plug it into my desktop might be able to do something with it.

umashankar

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

________________________________
From: Sursound <sursound-***@music.vt.edu> on behalf of John Leonard Main <***@johnleonard.uk>
Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2018 9:35:13 PM
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: [Sursound] Twirling 720 Microphone

Mine (pre-ordered for some small amount) arrived a couple of days ago and I’ve got it hooked up to my MacBook via a suitable USB adapter and an old Apple keyboard extension cable. At first, I couldn't get a sensible signal out of it, but then discovered that it needs to be connected via USB3, or it won’t work. Then I took a look at the capsule orientation, which, although it is indeed a tetrahedral array, seems to be skewed by 45º off centre, but as the output is encoded in some way into two channels, this may not be a problem. By using their 720 Studio app, I can get a sort-of surround signal out of it, although it appears to have no vertical information. The skimpy on-line manual is pretty useless for Mac users, so I wonder in anyone else has had better or more consistent results?

Bruce - I could send it to you for chamber analysis, if you’re interested.

All the best,

John
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Steven Boardman

2018-03-08 18:40:20 UTC

I have one too. Been using it successfully for a while with my android
phone.
It does seem to present itself to other audio apps as 2 channel 96khz
device.
When using the apk it records either stereo, or 4 channel A and B format
at 48khz. I think theres some sort if matrixing going on.
I haven't done any vertical tests, but the horizontal works well for the
price.
It is also pretty easy to rotate the capsule spindle, so not sure how
accurate the positioning is. Mine is also not quite perpendicular!
The manual is useless.
They are quick to fix bugs, and implement suggestions thoigh. (the
A-Fornat one was mine.)
Its way better than a h2n in my opinion, and really easy to carry, as i
always have my phone anyway.
Because if this i use it a lot, as i carry it at all times.
I just have to make a mount for use with my Samsung gear 360.

Best

Steve

Post by John Leonard Main
Mine (pre-ordered for some small amount) arrived a couple of days ago and
I’ve got it hooked up to my MacBook via a suitable USB adapter and an old
Apple keyboard extension cable. At first, I couldn't get a sensible signal
out of it, but then discovered that it needs to be connected via USB3, or
it won’t work. Then I took a look at the capsule orientation, which,
although it is indeed a tetrahedral array, seems to be skewed by 45º off
centre, but as the output is encoded in some way into two channels, this
may not be a problem. By using their 720 Studio app, I can get a sort-of
surround signal out of it, although it appears to have no vertical
information. The skimpy on-line manual is pretty useless for Mac users, so
I wonder in anyone else has had better or more consistent results?
Bruce - I could send it to you for chamber analysis, if you’re interested.
All the best,
John
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Marc Lavallée

2018-03-09 00:27:55 UTC

Hi Steven, and thanks for the useful info.

The fact that the Twirling720 presents itself as a stereo 96Khz
device and the possibility that the 4 channels are "encoded" in 2
channels is very interesting, because it could potentially be used with
any computer. I still don't use mine because the Android app is asking
for too many permissions on my phone. I'm waiting for the official SDK,
hoping I can program simple and safe custom apps. I also plan to build
a mount because holding it only from its USB plug is very risky; a
modified phone shell could be a good start.

Le Thu, 8 Mar 2018 18:40:20 +0000

Post by Steven Boardman
I have one too. Been using it successfully for a while with my android
phone.
It does seem to present itself to other audio apps as 2 channel 96khz
device.
When using the apk it records either stereo, or 4 channel A and B
format at 48khz. I think theres some sort if matrixing going on.
I haven't done any vertical tests, but the horizontal works well for
the price.
It is also pretty easy to rotate the capsule spindle, so not sure how
accurate the positioning is. Mine is also not quite perpendicular!
The manual is useless.
They are quick to fix bugs, and implement suggestions thoigh. (the
A-Fornat one was mine.)
Its way better than a h2n in my opinion, and really easy to carry, as
i always have my phone anyway.
Because if this i use it a lot, as i carry it at all times.
I just have to make a mount for use with my Samsung gear 360.
Best
Steve

Post by John Leonard Main
Mine (pre-ordered for some small amount) arrived a couple of days
ago and I’ve got it hooked up to my MacBook via a suitable USB
adapter and an old Apple keyboard extension cable. At first, I
couldn't get a sensible signal out of it, but then discovered that
it needs to be connected via USB3, or it won’t work. Then I took a
look at the capsule orientation, which, although it is indeed a
tetrahedral array, seems to be skewed by 45º off centre, but as the
output is encoded in some way into two channels, this may not be a
problem. By using their 720 Studio app, I can get a sort-of
surround signal out of it, although it appears to have no vertical
information. The skimpy on-line manual is pretty useless for Mac
users, so I wonder in anyone else has had better or more consistent
results?
Bruce - I could send it to you for chamber analysis, if you’re interested.
All the best,
John
_______________________________________________
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Gary Gallagher

2018-03-09 03:18:07 UTC

It does record the vertical information. Very compact Ambisonics recording
solution.

Post by Marc LavallÃ©e
Hi Steven, and thanks for the useful info.
The fact that the Twirling720 presents itself as a stereo 96Khz
device and the possibility that the 4 channels are "encoded" in 2
channels is very interesting, because it could potentially be used with
any computer. I still don't use mine because the Android app is asking
for too many permissions on my phone. I'm waiting for the official SDK,
hoping I can program simple and safe custom apps. I also plan to build
a mount because holding it only from its USB plug is very risky; a
modified phone shell could be a good start.
Le Thu, 8 Mar 2018 18:40:20 +0000

Post by John Leonard Main
Mine (pre-ordered for some small amount) arrived a couple of days
ago and I’ve got it hooked up to my MacBook via a suitable USB
adapter and an old Apple keyboard extension cable. At first, I
couldn't get a sensible signal out of it, but then discovered that
it needs to be connected via USB3, or it won’t work. Then I took a
look at the capsule orientation, which, although it is indeed a
tetrahedral array, seems to be skewed by 45º off centre, but as the
output is encoded in some way into two channels, this may not be a
problem. By using their 720 Studio app, I can get a sort-of
surround signal out of it, although it appears to have no vertical
information. The skimpy on-line manual is pretty useless for Mac
users, so I wonder in anyone else has had better or more consistent
results?
Bruce - I could send it to you for chamber analysis, if you’re interested.
All the best,
John
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.

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Post by Steven Boardman
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Aaron Heller

2018-03-09 04:35:26 UTC

A friend bought one, so I've been doing some reverse engineering.

In the 96kHz stereo file, the samples are interleaved

L: 1313131313
R: 2424242424

litepc2aformat reformats this to a 48kHz, 4-channel file

1: 11111
2: 22222
3: 33333
4: 44444

I also measured the impulse responses of Twirling720 Studio.app when
converting from 4-channel A-format to 4-channel B-format FuMa. It is just a
4x4 matrix, no coincidence correction or any other filters. (view this in
a fixed-width font)

1 2 3 4
FRU BRD FLD BLU
W 0.0354 0.0354 0.0354 0.0354
X 0.0107 -0.1220 0.1220 -0.0107
Y -0.1220 -0.0107 0.0107 0.1220
Z 0.0866 -0.0866 -0.0866 0.0866

If you invert that matrix and convert the velocity components to polar,
they assume the mics are pointed at,

az
-85.0000
-175.0000
5.0000
95.0000

el
35.2644
-35.2644
-35.2644
35.2644

so the whole mic array is rotated 40 degrees clockwise. The elevations are
correct for a tetrahedral array.

Also the euclidean length of the X, Y, Z components equals W*sqrt(2), so
the gains are for perfect cardioid capsules.

Looking at some sample recordings that were made well into the diffuse
field of a fairly reverberant hall, W looks about 3 dB too low, so I'm
guessing the capsules are more directional that cardioids, something
between a cardioid and supercardoid (which would make W 4.6 dB too low).

Without coincidence correction filters, the diffuse field response will be
wrong.

Aaron Heller (***@ai.sri.com)
Menlo Park, CA US

Post by John Leonard Main
Mine (pre-ordered for some small amount) arrived a couple of days
ago and I’ve got it hooked up to my MacBook via a suitable USB
adapter and an old Apple keyboard extension cable. At first, I
couldn't get a sensible signal out of it, but then discovered that
it needs to be connected via USB3, or it won’t work. Then I took a
look at the capsule orientation, which, although it is indeed a
tetrahedral array, seems to be skewed by 45º off centre, but as the
output is encoded in some way into two channels, this may not be a
problem. By using their 720 Studio app, I can get a sort-of
surround signal out of it, although it appears to have no vertical
information. The skimpy on-line manual is pretty useless for Mac
users, so I wonder in anyone else has had better or more consistent
results?
Bruce - I could send it to you for chamber analysis, if you’re interested.
All the best,
John
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
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Post by Marc LavallÃ©e

_______________________________________________
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Aaron Heller

2018-03-09 04:41:31 UTC

One correction, before you invert the A-to-B gain matrix, you have to
account for the -3dB gain on W in B-format FuMa.

Post by Aaron Heller
A friend bought one, so I've been doing some reverse engineering.
In the 96kHz stereo file, the samples are interleaved
L: 1313131313
R: 2424242424 <(242)%20424-2424>
litepc2aformat reformats this to a 48kHz, 4-channel file
1: 11111
2: 22222
3: 33333
4: 44444
I also measured the impulse responses of Twirling720 Studio.app when
converting from 4-channel A-format to 4-channel B-format FuMa. It is just a
4x4 matrix, no coincidence correction or any other filters. (view this in
a fixed-width font)
1 2 3 4
FRU BRD FLD BLU
W 0.0354 0.0354 0.0354 0.0354
X 0.0107 -0.1220 0.1220 -0.0107
Y -0.1220 -0.0107 0.0107 0.1220
Z 0.0866 -0.0866 -0.0866 0.0866
If you invert that matrix and convert the velocity components to polar,
they assume the mics are pointed at,
az
-85.0000
-175.0000
5.0000
95.0000
el
35.2644
-35.2644
-35.2644
35.2644
so the whole mic array is rotated 40 degrees clockwise. The elevations are
correct for a tetrahedral array.
Also the euclidean length of the X, Y, Z components equals W*sqrt(2), so
the gains are for perfect cardioid capsules.
Looking at some sample recordings that were made well into the diffuse
field of a fairly reverberant hall, W looks about 3 dB too low, so I'm
guessing the capsules are more directional that cardioids, something
between a cardioid and supercardoid (which would make W 4.6 dB too low).
Without coincidence correction filters, the diffuse field response will be
wrong.
Menlo Park, CA US

Post by John Leonard Main
Mine (pre-ordered for some small amount) arrived a couple of days
ago and I’ve got it hooked up to my MacBook via a suitable USB
adapter and an old Apple keyboard extension cable. At first, I
couldn't get a sensible signal out of it, but then discovered that
it needs to be connected via USB3, or it won’t work. Then I took a
look at the capsule orientation, which, although it is indeed a
tetrahedral array, seems to be skewed by 45º off centre, but as the
output is encoded in some way into two channels, this may not be a
problem. By using their 720 Studio app, I can get a sort-of
surround signal out of it, although it appears to have no vertical
information. The skimpy on-line manual is pretty useless for Mac
users, so I wonder in anyone else has had better or more consistent
results?
Bruce - I could send it to you for chamber analysis, if you’re interested.
All the best,
John
_______________________________________________
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here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.

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Post by Marc LavallÃ©e

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Joseph Anderson

2018-03-09 19:03:28 UTC

Thanks for this Aaron!

It does look like an easy "point and shoot" device, which can probably
sound much improved with some correction applied.

My best,

*Dr Joseph Anderson | Research Scientist*

DXARTS, Box 353414

University of Washington

Seattle, WA 98195-3680

http://www.dxarts.washington.edu

Subscribe to our events list <https://dxarts.washington.edu/mailing-list>
to receive email updates about lectures, performances, exhibitions and more.

Post by Aaron Heller
A friend bought one, so I've been doing some reverse engineering.
In the 96kHz stereo file, the samples are interleaved
L: 1313131313
R: 2424242424
litepc2aformat reformats this to a 48kHz, 4-channel file
1: 11111
2: 22222
3: 33333
4: 44444
I also measured the impulse responses of Twirling720 Studio.app when
converting from 4-channel A-format to 4-channel B-format FuMa. It is just a
4x4 matrix, no coincidence correction or any other filters. (view this in
a fixed-width font)
1 2 3 4
FRU BRD FLD BLU
W 0.0354 0.0354 0.0354 0.0354
X 0.0107 -0.1220 0.1220 -0.0107
Y -0.1220 -0.0107 0.0107 0.1220
Z 0.0866 -0.0866 -0.0866 0.0866
If you invert that matrix and convert the velocity components to polar,
they assume the mics are pointed at,
az
-85.0000
-175.0000
5.0000
95.0000
el
35.2644
-35.2644
-35.2644
35.2644
so the whole mic array is rotated 40 degrees clockwise. The elevations are
correct for a tetrahedral array.
Also the euclidean length of the X, Y, Z components equals W*sqrt(2), so
the gains are for perfect cardioid capsules.
Looking at some sample recordings that were made well into the diffuse
field of a fairly reverberant hall, W looks about 3 dB too low, so I'm
guessing the capsules are more directional that cardioids, something
between a cardioid and supercardoid (which would make W 4.6 dB too low).
Without coincidence correction filters, the diffuse field response will be
wrong.
Menlo Park, CA US

Post by John Leonard Main
Mine (pre-ordered for some small amount) arrived a couple of days
ago and I’ve got it hooked up to my MacBook via a suitable USB
adapter and an old Apple keyboard extension cable. At first, I
couldn't get a sensible signal out of it, but then discovered that
it needs to be connected via USB3, or it won’t work. Then I took a
look at the capsule orientation, which, although it is indeed a
tetrahedral array, seems to be skewed by 45º off centre, but as the
output is encoded in some way into two channels, this may not be a
problem. By using their 720 Studio app, I can get a sort-of
surround signal out of it, although it appears to have no vertical
information. The skimpy on-line manual is pretty useless for Mac
users, so I wonder in anyone else has had better or more consistent
results?
Bruce - I could send it to you for chamber analysis, if you’re interested.
All the best,
John
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
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here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.

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Gerard Lardner

2018-03-09 22:14:06 UTC

My attempts to reply last night, using my phone, didn't work. I'll try
again.

Take a look at Twirling's 'Accessory Pack'. It includes a stand, cable for connecting to a PC, various USB adaptors and a case for the Twirling720 Lite mic, and optionally a wind shield. I don't know how good any of these are, but they're cheap enough that I ordered a pack yesterday.

Gerard

Post by John Leonard Main
Mine (pre-ordered for some small amount) arrived a couple of days
ago and I’ve got it hooked up to my MacBook via a suitable USB
adapter and an old Apple keyboard extension cable. At first, I
couldn't get a sensible signal out of it, but then discovered that
it needs to be connected via USB3, or it won’t work. Then I took a
look at the capsule orientation, which, although it is indeed a
tetrahedral array, seems to be skewed by 45º off centre, but as the
output is encoded in some way into two channels, this may not be a
problem. By using their 720 Studio app, I can get a sort-of
surround signal out of it, although it appears to have no vertical
information. The skimpy on-line manual is pretty useless for Mac
users, so I wonder in anyone else has had better or more consistent
results?
Bruce - I could send it to you for chamber analysis, if you’re interested.
All the best,
John
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.

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Jon Gibbs

2018-03-14 16:26:08 UTC

I received my device yesterday.
The two halves of the wire screen shield unscrew which allows you to
re-position the microphone array more firmly - mine had shifted in transit.

Does anyone know what the pot on the side of the device is for? It doesn't
seem to do anything for me and there are no instructions at all.

Any other tips from anyone please?
Many thanks
Jon

Jon Gibbs
Oblisco Ltd
Tel: +44 15394 42665
Mob: +44 7709 554644

Post by Gerard Lardner
My attempts to reply last night, using my phone, didn't work. I'll try
again.
Take a look at Twirling's 'Accessory Pack'. It includes a stand, cable for
connecting to a PC, various USB adaptors and a case for the Twirling720
Lite mic, and optionally a wind shield. I don't know how good any of these
are, but they're cheap enough that I ordered a pack yesterday.
Gerard

Post by Steven Boardman
phone.
It does seem to present itself to other audio apps as 2 channel 96khz
device.
When using the apk it records either stereo, or 4 channel A and B
format at 48khz. I think theres some sort if matrixing going on.
I haven't done any vertical tests, but the horizontal works well for
the price.
It is also pretty easy to rotate the capsule spindle, so not sure how
accurate the positioning is. Mine is also not quite perpendicular!
The manual is useless.
They are quick to fix bugs, and implement suggestions thoigh. (the
A-Fornat one was mine.)
Its way better than a h2n in my opinion, and really easy to carry, as
i always have my phone anyway.
Because if this i use it a lot, as i carry it at all times.
I just have to make a mount for use with my Samsung gear 360.
Best
Steve
Mine (pre-ordered for some small amount) arrived a couple of days

Post by John Leonard Main
ago and I’ve got it hooked up to my MacBook via a suitable USB
adapter and an old Apple keyboard extension cable. At first, I
couldn't get a sensible signal out of it, but then discovered that
it needs to be connected via USB3, or it won’t work. Then I took a
look at the capsule orientation, which, although it is indeed a
tetrahedral array, seems to be skewed by 45º off centre, but as the
output is encoded in some way into two channels, this may not be a
problem. By using their 720 Studio app, I can get a sort-of
surround signal out of it, although it appears to have no vertical
information. The skimpy on-line manual is pretty useless for Mac
users, so I wonder in anyone else has had better or more consistent
results?
Bruce - I could send it to you for chamber analysis, if you’re interested.
All the best,
John
_______________________________________________
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Steven Boardman

2018-03-14 16:33:09 UTC

Be careful doing that, the head popped off mine when i repositioned. A bit
of glue put it right.

That's a gain pot. Unfortunately there is no metering until its in record.
Which is annoying.

Despite all this i like mine!

Steve

Post by Jon Gibbs
I received my device yesterday.
The two halves of the wire screen shield unscrew which allows you to
re-position the microphone array more firmly - mine had shifted in transit.
Does anyone know what the pot on the side of the device is for? It doesn't
seem to do anything for me and there are no instructions at all.
Any other tips from anyone please?
Many thanks
Jon
Jon Gibbs
Oblisco Ltd
Tel: +44 15394 42665
Mob: +44 7709 554644

Post by Gerard Lardner
My attempts to reply last night, using my phone, didn't work. I'll try
again.
Take a look at Twirling's 'Accessory Pack'. It includes a stand, cable

for

Post by Gerard Lardner
connecting to a PC, various USB adaptors and a case for the Twirling720
Lite mic, and optionally a wind shield. I don't know how good any of

these

Post by Gerard Lardner
are, but they're cheap enough that I ordered a pack yesterday.
Gerard

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Jon Gibbs

2018-03-14 17:59:18 UTC

Hi Steve,
Thanks for the warning but mine is definitely better now for the
re-positioning.

I have tried twiddling the gain pot but nothing seems to change but perhaps
there's an AGC somewhere that is overriding it.

Do you use yours with Android? If so do you have any experience of it using
the phone's attitude/motion to adjust the response? The website seems to
suggest that it does this....

POSITION SENSING

Combining the built-in motion sensors on the mobile device and Twirling's
proprietary algorithms, the Twirling720 Lite is able to sense its position
and provide the optimal audio recording no matter how it is positioned.
There's no need to adjust the microphone's position manually as you would
normally do on all the other devices.
I'd quite like to use an extension cable which might spoof this aspect.
Many thanks
Jon

Jon Gibbs

Post by Steven Boardman
Be careful doing that, the head popped off mine when i repositioned. A bit
of glue put it right.
That's a gain pot. Unfortunately there is no metering until its in record.
Which is annoying.
Despite all this i like mine!
Steve

Post by Jon Gibbs
I received my device yesterday.
The two halves of the wire screen shield unscrew which allows you to
re-position the microphone array more firmly - mine had shifted in

transit.

Post by Jon Gibbs
Does anyone know what the pot on the side of the device is for? It

doesn't

Post by Jon Gibbs
seem to do anything for me and there are no instructions at all.
Any other tips from anyone please?
Many thanks
Jon
Jon Gibbs
Oblisco Ltd
Tel: +44 15394 42665
Mob: +44 7709 554644

Post by Gerard Lardner
My attempts to reply last night, using my phone, didn't work. I'll try
again.
Take a look at Twirling's 'Accessory Pack'. It includes a stand, cable

for

Post by Gerard Lardner
connecting to a PC, various USB adaptors and a case for the Twirling720
Lite mic, and optionally a wind shield. I don't know how good any of

these

Post by Gerard Lardner
are, but they're cheap enough that I ordered a pack yesterday.
Gerard

with

Post by Marc LavallÃ©e
any computer. I still don't use mine because the Android app is asking
for too many permissions on my phone. I'm waiting for the official

SDK,

Post by Marc LavallÃ©e
hoping I can program simple and safe custom apps. I also plan to build
a mount because holding it only from its USB plug is very risky; a
modified phone shell could be a good start.
Le Thu, 8 Mar 2018 18:40:20 +0000
I have one too. Been using it successfully for a while with my android

Post by Steven Boardman
phone.
It does seem to present itself to other audio apps as 2 channel

96khz

Post by Steven Boardman
device.
When using the apk it records either stereo, or 4 channel A and B
format at 48khz. I think theres some sort if matrixing going on.
I haven't done any vertical tests, but the horizontal works well for
the price.
It is also pretty easy to rotate the capsule spindle, so not sure how
accurate the positioning is. Mine is also not quite perpendicular!
The manual is useless.
They are quick to fix bugs, and implement suggestions thoigh. (the
A-Fornat one was mine.)
Its way better than a h2n in my opinion, and really easy to carry, as
i always have my phone anyway.
Because if this i use it a lot, as i carry it at all times.
I just have to make a mount for use with my Samsung gear 360.
Best
Steve
Mine (pre-ordered for some small amount) arrived a couple of days

list

Post by Steven Boardman
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here,

Post by Gerard Lardner
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Gerard Lardner

2018-03-09 01:19:23 UTC

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Gerard Lardner

2018-03-09 01:30:19 UTC

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Gerard Lardner

2018-03-09 01:35:25 UTC