Discussion:
Zoom H3-VR
(too old to reply)
Courville, Daniel
2018-09-13 18:04:14 UTC
Permalink
New tetrahedral mic and recorder from Zoom:
https://www.zoom.co.jp/products/field-video-recording/field-recording/zoom-h3-vr-handy-recorder
Marc Lavallée
2018-09-14 00:59:37 UTC
Permalink
Le 13/09/2018 à 14:04, Courville, Daniel a écrit :
> New tetrahedral mic and recorder from Zoom:
> https://www.zoom.co.jp/products/field-video-recording/field-recording/zoom-h3-vr-handy-recorder

I just read the quick guide pdf document (which is only 16 pages long).

It has nice features; notably it can work as a 4-channel USB sound module.

Sadly, the remote control app is for iOS only (no Android version yet);
I guess that a market study proved that the target audience is mostly
using Apple products.

Something odd; the orientation must be set in the menu, and the
orientation sensors are just used to adjust the tilt of the microphone
(like an integrated level). An orientation tracker, with automatic
rotation of the soundfield would have been better (but maybe more
expensive). The same tracker could have been used to rotate the
soundfield while replaying the recording through the phone out, instead
of changing the soundfield rotation in the menu (because small lcd menus
are such a pain to use).

Marc
David Worrall
2018-09-14 07:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Hi All,

I didn’t manage to see a price. Any clues?



Cheers,

David





From: Sursound <sursound-***@music.vt.edu> on behalf of Marc Lavallée <***@hacklava.net>
Reply-To: Surround Sound discussion group <***@music.vt.edu>
Date: Thursday, September 13, 2018 at 8:00 PM
To: <***@music.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Zoom H3-VR



Le 13/09/2018 à 14:04, Courville, Daniel a écrit :

New tetrahedral mic and recorder from Zoom:

https://www.zoom.co.jp/products/field-video-recording/field-recording/zoom-h3-vr-handy-recorder



I just read the quick guide pdf document (which is only 16 pages long).



It has nice features; notably it can work as a 4-channel USB sound module.



Sadly, the remote control app is for iOS only (no Android version yet);

I guess that a market study proved that the target audience is mostly

using Apple products.



Something odd; the orientation must be set in the menu, and the

orientation sensors are just used to adjust the tilt of the microphone

(like an integrated level). An orientation tracker, with automatic

rotation of the soundfield would have been better (but maybe more

expensive). The same tracker could have been used to rotate the

soundfield while replaying the recording through the phone out, instead

of changing the soundfield rotation in the menu (because small lcd menus

are such a pain to use).



Marc



_______________________________________________

Sursound mailing list

***@music.vt.edu

https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.



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Søren Bendixen
2018-09-14 08:05:29 UTC
Permalink
Someone on Facebook mention around 350 USD
https://www.facebook.com/groups/SpatialAudioVRARMR/?multi_permalinks=1454242301385759&notif_id=1536703644190551&notif_t=group_highlights <https://www.facebook.com/groups/SpatialAudioVRARMR/?multi_permalinks=1454242301385759&notif_id=1536703644190551&notif_t=group_highlights>

/Søren Bendixen

> Den 14. sep. 2018 kl. 09.43 skrev David Worrall <***@avatar.com.au>:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I didn’t manage to see a price. Any clues?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Sursound <sursound-***@music.vt.edu> on behalf of Marc Lavallée <***@hacklava.net>
> Reply-To: Surround Sound discussion group <***@music.vt.edu>
> Date: Thursday, September 13, 2018 at 8:00 PM
> To: <***@music.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Zoom H3-VR
>
>
>
> Le 13/09/2018 à 14:04, Courville, Daniel a écrit :
>
> New tetrahedral mic and recorder from Zoom:
>
> https://www.zoom.co.jp/products/field-video-recording/field-recording/zoom-h3-vr-handy-recorder
>
>
>
> I just read the quick guide pdf document (which is only 16 pages long).
>
>
>
> It has nice features; notably it can work as a 4-channel USB sound module.
>
>
>
> Sadly, the remote control app is for iOS only (no Android version yet);
>
> I guess that a market study proved that the target audience is mostly
>
> using Apple products.
>
>
>
> Something odd; the orientation must be set in the menu, and the
>
> orientation sensors are just used to adjust the tilt of the microphone
>
> (like an integrated level). An orientation tracker, with automatic
>
> rotation of the soundfield would have been better (but maybe more
>
> expensive). The same tracker could have been used to rotate the
>
> soundfield while replaying the recording through the phone out, instead
>
> of changing the soundfield rotation in the menu (because small lcd menus
>
> are such a pain to use).
>
>
>
> Marc
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Sursound mailing list
>
> ***@music.vt.edu
>
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20180914/c14e6e0d/attachment.html>
> _______________________________________________
> Sursound mailing list
> ***@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.

Med venlig hilsen/Best regards

Søren Bendixen
Composer/Sound Designer/Producer

Company: Audiotect

New Exhibition sound design " På Djengis Khans stepper - Mongoliets Nomader",
- Moesgaard Museum, 19 june 2018 - 7 april 2019
- National Museum of Denmark: From june 2019

Jyllandsposten: 5 (out of 6) Stars: “The illusion of a railroad journey is underpinned by the sceneries that stand outside the windows. Sound and image are in exemplary harmony, which is just as consistent
completed when you attend the exhibition. the room is generally enhanced by a rather fascinating sound design” (22 juni 2018)



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Drew Kirkland
2018-09-14 08:10:46 UTC
Permalink
https://www.harmonycentral.com/news/the-h3-vr-handy-recorder---vr-audio-youve-arrived

On Fri, 14 Sep 2018, 09:05 Søren Bendixen, <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Someone on Facebook mention around 350 USD
>
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/SpatialAudioVRARMR/?multi_permalinks=1454242301385759&notif_id=1536703644190551&notif_t=group_highlights
> <
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/SpatialAudioVRARMR/?multi_permalinks=1454242301385759&notif_id=1536703644190551&notif_t=group_highlights
> >
>
> /Søren Bendixen
>
> > Den 14. sep. 2018 kl. 09.43 skrev David Worrall <***@avatar.com.au>:
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I didn’t manage to see a price. Any clues?
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Sursound <sursound-***@music.vt.edu> on behalf of Marc
> Lavallée <***@hacklava.net>
> > Reply-To: Surround Sound discussion group <***@music.vt.edu>
> > Date: Thursday, September 13, 2018 at 8:00 PM
> > To: <***@music.vt.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Zoom H3-VR
> >
> >
> >
> > Le 13/09/2018 à 14:04, Courville, Daniel a écrit :
> >
> > New tetrahedral mic and recorder from Zoom:
> >
> >
> https://www.zoom.co.jp/products/field-video-recording/field-recording/zoom-h3-vr-handy-recorder
> >
> >
> >
> > I just read the quick guide pdf document (which is only 16 pages long).
> >
> >
> >
> > It has nice features; notably it can work as a 4-channel USB sound
> module.
> >
> >
> >
> > Sadly, the remote control app is for iOS only (no Android version yet);
> >
> > I guess that a market study proved that the target audience is mostly
> >
> > using Apple products.
> >
> >
> >
> > Something odd; the orientation must be set in the menu, and the
> >
> > orientation sensors are just used to adjust the tilt of the microphone
> >
> > (like an integrated level). An orientation tracker, with automatic
> >
> > rotation of the soundfield would have been better (but maybe more
> >
> > expensive). The same tracker could have been used to rotate the
> >
> > soundfield while replaying the recording through the phone out, instead
> >
> > of changing the soundfield rotation in the menu (because small lcd menus
> >
> > are such a pain to use).
> >
> >
> >
> > Marc
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Sursound mailing list
> >
> > ***@music.vt.edu
> >
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> > URL: <
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20180914/c14e6e0d/attachment.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sursound mailing list
> > ***@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
> Med venlig hilsen/Best regards
>
> Søren Bendixen
> Composer/Sound Designer/Producer
>
> Company: Audiotect
>
> New Exhibition sound design " På Djengis Khans stepper - Mongoliets
> Nomader",
> - Moesgaard Museum, 19 june 2018 - 7 april 2019
> - National Museum of Denmark: From june 2019
>
> Jyllandsposten: 5 (out of 6) Stars: “The illusion of a railroad journey is
> underpinned by the sceneries that stand outside the windows. Sound and
> image are in exemplary harmony, which is just as consistent
> completed when you attend the exhibition. the room is generally enhanced
> by a rather fascinating sound design” (22 juni 2018)
>
>
>
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> URL: <
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20180914/c0847206/attachment.jpg
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Sursound mailing list
> ***@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
--





Drew Kirkland
1 campbleton cottage
Hunterston Estate
KA23 9QF
07876 238 608
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David Pickett
2018-09-15 07:00:58 UTC
Permalink
At 10:10 14-09-18, Drew Kirkland wrote:
>
>https://www.harmonycentral.com/news/the-h3-vr-handy-recorder---vr-audi
>o-youve-arrived
>
>On Fri, 14 Sep 2018, 09:05 Søren Bendixen, <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Someone on Facebook mention around 350 USD

This is a welcome price, but unfortunately, for
that kind of money you dont get any numerical
specifications, graphs, or guarantee of capsule
matching, repeatability or variance between
examples, all of which determine its potential value as a professional tool.

David
Eero Aro
2018-09-15 10:19:42 UTC
Permalink
David Pickett wrote:

> This is a welcome price, but unfortunately, for that kind of money you
> dont get any numerical specifications, graphs, or guarantee of capsule
> matching, repeatability or variance between examples, all of which
> determine its potential value as a professional tool.

For about thirty years I have been waiting for an Ambisonic microphone
for a non-professional user. I welcome Zoom's new product with pleasure!

I have been using my employer's Soundfield Mk IV and V and the ST250.
All of them have been noisy and expensive buggers not suited for my pocket
money to buy one for my personal use. All other, later Ambisonic mic models
have also been and are too expensive for me to buy. That's why the Zoom
H3 is
welcome and it will surely find buyers. There is a market gap for a
reasonably
priced Ambisonic microphone.

I do understand that the H3 will not be technically and audio quality wise
at as high level as products that cost ten on more times more, but the
biggest
problem with all Ambisonic gear during the years has been that there hasn't
been equipment for the ordinary home user. Only some decoders, such as
the Minims were targeted for the home, and even them were a bit complicated
for Joe D to set up.

Eero
Augustine Leudar
2018-09-15 10:34:57 UTC
Permalink
Couldnt see the cost anywhere ? Anyone know the pricing ?

On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 at 11:20, Eero Aro <***@dlc.fi> wrote:

> David Pickett wrote:
>
> > This is a welcome price, but unfortunately, for that kind of money you
> > dont get any numerical specifications, graphs, or guarantee of capsule
> > matching, repeatability or variance between examples, all of which
> > determine its potential value as a professional tool.
>
> For about thirty years I have been waiting for an Ambisonic microphone
> for a non-professional user. I welcome Zoom's new product with pleasure!
>
> I have been using my employer's Soundfield Mk IV and V and the ST250.
> All of them have been noisy and expensive buggers not suited for my pocket
> money to buy one for my personal use. All other, later Ambisonic mic
> models
> have also been and are too expensive for me to buy. That's why the Zoom
> H3 is
> welcome and it will surely find buyers. There is a market gap for a
> reasonably
> priced Ambisonic microphone.
>
> I do understand that the H3 will not be technically and audio quality wise
> at as high level as products that cost ten on more times more, but the
> biggest
> problem with all Ambisonic gear during the years has been that there hasn't
> been equipment for the ordinary home user. Only some decoders, such as
> the Minims were targeted for the home, and even them were a bit complicated
> for Joe D to set up.
>
> Eero
> _______________________________________________
> Sursound mailing list
> ***@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>


--
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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Paul Scargill
2018-09-15 12:27:05 UTC
Permalink
$349 pre-order according to this website...http://360rumors.com/2018/09/can-now-preorder-zoom-h3-vr-ambisonic-microphone-auto-alignment-advanced-features.html

On Saturday, 15 September 2018, 11:35:26 GMT+1, Augustine Leudar <***@gmail.com> wrote:

Couldnt see the cost anywhere ? Anyone know the pricing ?

On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 at 11:20, Eero Aro <***@dlc.fi> wrote:

> David Pickett wrote:
>
> > This is a welcome price, but unfortunately, for that kind of money you
> > dont get any numerical specifications, graphs, or guarantee of capsule
> > matching, repeatability or variance between examples, all of which
> > determine its potential value as a professional tool.
>
> For about thirty years I have been waiting for an Ambisonic microphone
> for a non-professional user. I welcome Zoom's new product with pleasure!
>
> I have been using my employer's Soundfield Mk IV and V and the ST250.
> All of them have been noisy and expensive buggers not suited for my pocket
> money to buy one for my personal use.  All other, later Ambisonic mic
> models
> have also been and are too expensive for me to buy. That's why the Zoom
> H3 is
> welcome and it will surely find buyers. There is a market gap for a
> reasonably
> priced Ambisonic microphone.
>
> I do understand that the H3 will not be technically and audio quality wise
> at as high level as products that cost ten on more times more, but the
> biggest
> problem with all Ambisonic gear during the years has been that there hasn't
> been equipment for the ordinary home user. Only some decoders, such as
> the Minims were targeted for the home, and even them were a bit complicated
> for Joe D to set up.
>
> Eero
> _______________________________________________
> Sursound mailing list
> ***@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>


--
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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***@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.

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Marc Lavallée
2018-09-15 12:59:52 UTC
Permalink
Le 15/09/2018 à 06:19, Eero Aro a écrit :

> David Pickett wrote:
>
>> This is a welcome price, but unfortunately, for that kind of money
>> you dont get any numerical specifications, graphs, or guarantee of
>> capsule matching, repeatability or variance between examples, all of
>> which determine its potential value as a professional tool.
>
> For about thirty years I have been waiting for an Ambisonic microphone
> for a non-professional user. I welcome Zoom's new product with pleasure!

What I'm still waiting for is a free (as in speech) Ambisonics
microphone like the ones being developed by the SpHEAR project:
https://cm-gitlab.stanford.edu/ambisonics/SpHEAR/

I want something affordable, that I can build, fix and calibrate myself,
without two PhDs and access to a nuclear-powered anechoic chamber. I
want a modest gear and enough knowledge. In the meanwhile, I could get
an H3 (or some other affordable "solution"), but like David I want the
numbers. So its a call to all experts who are still reading Sursound;
collaborate to the SpHEAR project and make us capable of building a
decent Ambisonics microphone. I know it will happen, but by then, how
many new obscure and shiny "products" will hit the market?

Marc
Chris Woolf
2018-09-15 13:52:03 UTC
Permalink
Marc L said:

What I'm still waiting for is a free (as in speech) Ambisonics
microphone like the ones being developed by the SpHEAR project:
https://cm-gitlab.stanford.edu/ambisonics/SpHEAR/
>
> I want something affordable, that I can build, fix and calibrate
> myself, without two PhDs and access to a nuclear-powered anechoic
> chamber. I want a modest gear and enough knowledge....
>
> Marc
The great problem, of course, is that these things are only "affordable"
if they can be mass-produced and sold in the tens of thousands. In DIY
quantities for enthusiasts they may be excellent in quality, but they
really cannot be inexpensive.

For low cost the Zooms and the Rode's are the only plausible future,
because they can amortise their enormous research, set-up and machining
costs over sufficient numbers. The interesting point is that the sort of
accuracy and tolerance feasible during their style of mass-production is
beginning to equate to that of the specialists of bygone years.

How open these sort of products can be in terms of internal architecture
and calibration is another (commercial) problem. At least some secrecy
is essential to their business model, to avoid making reverse
engineering too easy... and therefore losing the mass market that their
product has to be based on.

None of this appeals to the artisan in most of us, but the reality of it
cannot be ignored either.

Chris Woolf

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
hacklava
2018-09-15 15:12:12 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 14:52:03 +0100
Chris Woolf <***@chriswoolf.co.uk> wrote:

> How open these sort of products can be in terms of internal architecture
> and calibration is another (commercial) problem. At least some secrecy
> is essential to their business model, to avoid making reverse
> engineering too easy... and therefore losing the mass market that their
> product has to be based on.

I read your "it's the economy, stupid" argument. Now there's a market. Hallelujah. Consumers of the world, praise secrecy.

My point is that all the hardware is available to build an Ambisonics microphone, there's no fondamental research to be done (at least for a simple FOA microphone), and Ambisonics is patent free. That's exactly why Zoom was able to create a new consumer product. There's probably more plastic than anything else in this microphone. It will good enough, and a lot of fun to use, but still... The missing "soft" part is calibration... Even if calibration becomes common knowledge, there would be people making money offering calibration services; the end of secrecy is not the end of economy.

> None of this appeals to the artisan in most of us, but the reality of it cannot be ignored either.

Like sound, reality have directional components; we're in 2018, not in 1980, and there's alternatives.

Marc
Chris Woolf
2018-09-15 16:57:31 UTC
Permalink
On 15/09/2018 16:12, hacklava wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 14:52:03 +0100
> Chris Woolf <***@chriswoolf.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> How open these sort of products can be in terms of internal architecture
>> and calibration is another (commercial) problem. At least some secrecy
>> is essential to their business model, to avoid making reverse
>> engineering too easy... and therefore losing the mass market that their
>> product has to be based on.
> I read your "it's the economy, stupid" argument. Now there's a market. Hallelujah. Consumers of the world, praise secrecy.
Put it this way; I understand how the audio market works, having been a
designer for bits of it over the decades. Personally I love the artisan
aspect, but I have to accept that patents and keeping some things hidden
has been what has paid my for my bread crusts over the years.
> My point is that all the hardware is available to build an Ambisonics microphone,
But selling you 4 matched capsules as an individual, and selling them as
part of a finished ambisonics recorder, is a very different commercial
matter.
> ... There's probably more plastic than anything else in this microphone.
Oh, don't dismiss plastic! It can be a far better material than metal,
used in the right place. Nor is it cheap to design and tool - it is just
cheap as a part, when you make 100,000. I have countless arguments about
the use of foam i n windshields, which people assume must be cheap
because they see something like it in packaging. They never realise how
hard it is to engineer on a 3-axis high speed CNC.
>
> Like sound, reality have directional components; we're in 2018, not in 1980, and there's alternatives.
There are....

Chris Woolf

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Fernando Lopez-Lezcano
2018-09-15 17:44:31 UTC
Permalink
On 09/15/2018 08:12 AM, hacklava wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 14:52:03 +0100
> Chris Woolf <***@chriswoolf.co.uk> wrote:
>> How open these sort of products can be in terms of internal architecture
>> and calibration is another (commercial) problem.

Ah, yes, calibration. I imagine that the H3V is not individually
calibrated (like the Ambeo). That means frequency response and polar
patterns will not be "perfect", but I presume they will be good enough
(they say the capsules are matched). Even if they are not "perfect",
will those errors be perceptually relevant to recordings made with it?

>>At least some secrecy
>> is essential to their business model, to avoid making reverse
>> engineering too easy...

Hmmm, for a first order microphone it does not look to me like you need
any reverse engineering to see what is going on in it. Unless you mean
the practical engineering choices made to create an affordable product
with enough quality to satisfy the target market. I like what I see so
far (but that could change when I get hold of one :-).

>>and therefore losing the mass market that their
>> product has to be based on.
>
> I read your "it's the economy, stupid" argument. Now there's a market. Hallelujah. Consumers of the world, praise secrecy.
>
> My point is that all the hardware is available to build an Ambisonics microphone, there's no fundamental research to be done (at least for a simple FOA microphone), and Ambisonics is patent free. That's exactly why Zoom was able to create a new consumer product. There's probably more plastic than anything else in this microphone. It will good enough, and a lot of fun to use, but still... The missing "soft" part is calibration...

The new Zoom H3V can record A-format, that is, the signals coming
directly from the capsules. That means that you can calibrate it[*], and
use an external encoder to convert A format to B format. The B format
performance will be determined by the quality of the calibration
measurements and the algorithm (and tradeofs) of the calibration process.

A custom calibration can compensate for gain mismatches between
capsules, frequency response of the capsules, and to some degree
mechanical inaccuracies, but not polar pattern mismatches of the capsules.

You of course cannot improve the raw signal to noise ratio of the
capsules and preamps themselves (and of course the raw frequency
response), but judging from previous Zoom products (I have used the H2N)
those numbers should be acceptable.

I'm looking forward to buying one and putting it through my measuring
and calibration procedures. I will be able to do "before" and "after"
plots of all the parameters... :-)

-- Fernando

[*] the specs I read so far are a bit unclear regarding the USB audio
interface behavior, apparently you can send to the computer all four
signals (but which ones? can you send A-format?) but it is not clear if
you can, at the same time, send from the computer to, say, the line
outputs. If that is the case it would make calibration much simpler
(otherwise the playback equipment and recording equipment are not sample
rate locked and the mismatch has to be compensated for, something I was
doing for calibrating my SpHEAR FrankenMic, an H2N with an external
"correct" tetrahedral capsule array).
Ralf R Radermacher
2018-09-15 18:53:43 UTC
Permalink
Am 15.09.18 um 19:44 schrieb Fernando Lopez-Lezcano:

> I'm looking forward to buying one and putting it through my measuring
> and calibration procedures.

Also, it will be interesting to see if for once they really have
included a useful limiter, i.e. one working ahead of the A/D converter,
or if its again just a digital 'effect' reducing the level of the
squarewave from the overdriven converter in the digital domain.

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - Köln/Cologne, Germany
Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com
Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
Web : http://www.fotoralf.de
Steven Boardman
2018-09-15 19:11:22 UTC
Permalink
Their limiter doesn't work like that Ralf. It's a hybrid type. If its
enabled the analog record attenuated by 12db, but compensated by a 12db
gain digitally. When the signal hits the limiter, the digital gain
compensation is removed. Leaving the adc un clipped. Its not as good as
limiters solely in the analog domain, but a good compromise. If recording
24bit this isn't to much of a problem. Especially on the f8 as you can use
the other 4 preamps to record at a different level.

My take on all this, is the more the merrier.
Having an all in one small unit, however non professional is great. I have
a twirling720 lite, which works with my phone. I have it on me all the
time. Not exactly professional standard, but some of the sounds i have
recorded, would not of happened if it was pro gear.
I just wouldn't risk losing it. Its cheap and Its small, and i always have
my phone anyway...

Best

Steve

On Sat, 15 Sep 2018, 19:53 Ralf R Radermacher, <***@gmx.de> wrote:

> Am 15.09.18 um 19:44 schrieb Fernando Lopez-Lezcano:
>
> > I'm looking forward to buying one and putting it through my measuring
> > and calibration procedures.
>
> Also, it will be interesting to see if for once they really have
> included a useful limiter, i.e. one working ahead of the A/D converter,
> or if its again just a digital 'effect' reducing the level of the
> squarewave from the overdriven converter in the digital domain.
>
> Ralf
>
> --
> Ralf R. Radermacher - Köln/Cologne, Germany
> Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com
> Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
> Web : http://www.fotoralf.de
> _______________________________________________
> Sursound mailing list
> ***@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
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Ralf R Radermacher
2018-09-15 20:07:07 UTC
Permalink
Am 15.09.18 um 21:11 schrieb Steven Boardman:
> Their limiter doesn't work like that Ralf.

It does in the H2, H4 and H4n. Purely digital and behind the A/D
converter. They call it a digital 'effect'.

Zoom have a rich history with such stunts. Shortly after the
introduction of the H4n, some particularly loud metal musicians
complained that even in the lowest level setting it would still be
distorting.

A new firmware release brought the additional mic level settings 0.1 to
0.9 with a downward extension of the control range by 24 dB. A quick
check on the test bench revealed that they just reduced the level in the
digital domain. The recorded signal was still flat-topping, with the
level meters at -24 dB, while the input select buttons were flashing
furiously to indicate the overload at the AD converter.

> Having an all in one small unit, however non professional is great.

I'll certainly agree with that, although cum grano salis, as usual with
Zoom. Having said this, I have a few hundred audio recordings I would
never have made if it weren't for the ease and simplicity of the Zooms.

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - Köln/Cologne, Germany
Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com
Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
Web : http://www.fotoralf.de
Fernando Lopez-Lezcano
2018-09-15 18:17:09 UTC
Permalink
On 09/15/2018 05:59 AM, Marc Lavallée wrote:
> Le 15/09/2018 à 06:19, Eero Aro a écrit :
>
>> David Pickett wrote:
>>
>>> This is a welcome price, but unfortunately, for that kind of money
>>> you dont get any numerical specifications, graphs, or guarantee of
>>> capsule matching, repeatability or variance between examples, all of
>>> which determine its potential value as a professional tool.
>>
>> For about thirty years I have been waiting for an Ambisonic microphone
>> for a non-professional user. I welcome Zoom's new product with pleasure!
>
> What I'm still waiting for is a free (as in speech) Ambisonics
> microphone like the ones being developed by the SpHEAR project:
> https://cm-gitlab.stanford.edu/ambisonics/SpHEAR/
>
> I want something affordable, that I can build, fix and calibrate myself,
> without two PhDs and access to a nuclear-powered anechoic chamber. I
> want a modest gear and enough knowledge.

Yup, what I wanted as well, and one of the reasons I started the
project. The current generation of microphones in the SpHEAR world (four
and eight capsule designs so far) is sort of "feature complete",
including a fairly decent calibration procedure (or so I think).

The current status of the project is reflected in this recent paper
(AES, not public, sorry, contact me if you don't have access):

The *SpHEAR Project Update: The TinySpHEAR and Octathingy Soundfield
Microphones
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=19682

(the actual SpHEAR project git repository web front page is very
outdated, sorry, and I have not had time to push the latest updates)

>In the meanwhile, I could get
> an H3 (or some other affordable "solution"), but like David I want the
> numbers. So its a call to all experts who are still reading Sursound;
> collaborate to the SpHEAR project and make us capable of building a
> decent Ambisonics microphone. I know it will happen, ...

It is possible to do that now. But as I say in another post of this
thread, building one is not "cheap", if you count labor[*], and (not
enough time as always) the instructions are not complete. On the other
hand, the knowledge gained in building and understanding one is
something you cannot buy...

-- Fernando

[*] find and buy all components, 3d print all parts, make or order PCBs,
assemble printed circuit boards (you need pretty good soldering skills),
connect everything together (again, good manual dexterity), find a space
for doing the calibration measurements, make _good_ calibration
measurements (not trivial, needs skill, good speaker and reference
microphone), run the calibration software and check results for sanity,
etc, etc... Not what you would call "cheap", but the end result is
pretty good.
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Bo-Erik Sandholm
2018-09-15 18:45:20 UTC
Permalink
Not to be a sour puss, but doing open source stuff and not updating the
documention is something a lot of us are guilty off...

This is a really a sad state off affairs, and many man hours can be saved
of we guilty ones made the effort :-)

In some cases the code is updated but you can only find information on how
the first feature starved version worked.

So take your time and make the effort to do the documentation...

My only github project OHTI, open headtracker will soon be updated due to
information I have recently found out.
The fixes I have searched for have actually been implemented for quite a
while, but info about that has been impossible to find using Google
searches.
So I had to get the info directly from the developer.


Bo-Erik


On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 20:17 Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, <***@ccrma.stanford.edu>
wrote:

> On 09/15/2018 05:59 AM, Marc Lavallée wrote:
> > Le 15/09/2018 à 06:19, Eero Aro a écrit :
> >
> >> David Pickett wrote:
> >>
> >>> This is a welcome price, but unfortunately, for that kind of money
> >>> you dont get any numerical specifications, graphs, or guarantee of
> >>> capsule matching, repeatability or variance between examples, all of
> >>> which determine its potential value as a professional tool.
> >>
> >> For about thirty years I have been waiting for an Ambisonic microphone
> >> for a non-professional user. I welcome Zoom's new product with pleasure!
> >
> > What I'm still waiting for is a free (as in speech) Ambisonics
> > microphone like the ones being developed by the SpHEAR project:
> > https://cm-gitlab.stanford.edu/ambisonics/SpHEAR/
> >
> > I want something affordable, that I can build, fix and calibrate myself,
> > without two PhDs and access to a nuclear-powered anechoic chamber. I
> > want a modest gear and enough knowledge.
>
> Yup, what I wanted as well, and one of the reasons I started the
> project. The current generation of microphones in the SpHEAR world (four
> and eight capsule designs so far) is sort of "feature complete",
> including a fairly decent calibration procedure (or so I think).
>
> The current status of the project is reflected in this recent paper
> (AES, not public, sorry, contact me if you don't have access):
>
> The *SpHEAR Project Update: The TinySpHEAR and Octathingy Soundfield
> Microphones
> http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=19682
>
> (the actual SpHEAR project git repository web front page is very
> outdated, sorry, and I have not had time to push the latest updates)
>
> >In the meanwhile, I could get
> > an H3 (or some other affordable "solution"), but like David I want the
> > numbers. So its a call to all experts who are still reading Sursound;
> > collaborate to the SpHEAR project and make us capable of building a
> > decent Ambisonics microphone. I know it will happen, ...
>
> It is possible to do that now. But as I say in another post of this
> thread, building one is not "cheap", if you count labor[*], and (not
> enough time as always) the instructions are not complete. On the other
> hand, the knowledge gained in building and understanding one is
> something you cannot buy...
>
> -- Fernando
>
> [*] find and buy all components, 3d print all parts, make or order PCBs,
> assemble printed circuit boards (you need pretty good soldering skills),
> connect everything together (again, good manual dexterity), find a space
> for doing the calibration measurements, make _good_ calibration
> measurements (not trivial, needs skill, good speaker and reference
> microphone), run the calibration software and check results for sanity,
> etc, etc... Not what you would call "cheap", but the end result is
> pretty good.
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> >
> _______________________________________________
> Sursound mailing list
> ***@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
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Ralf R Radermacher
2018-09-15 19:33:03 UTC
Permalink
Am 15.09.18 um 20:45 schrieb Bo-Erik Sandholm:

> My only github project OHTI, open headtracker will soon be updated due to
> information I have recently found out.

Is there a link to this project? A quick Google search hasn't returned
anything.

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - Köln/Cologne, Germany
Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com
Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
Web : http://www.fotoralf.de
Marc Lavallée
2018-09-16 01:07:18 UTC
Permalink
Le 15/09/2018 à 14:17, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano a écrit :

> [*] find and buy all components, 3d print all parts, make or order
> PCBs, assemble printed circuit boards (you need pretty good soldering
> skills), connect everything together (again, good manual dexterity),
> find a space for doing the calibration measurements, make _good_
> calibration measurements (not trivial, needs skill, good speaker and
> reference microphone), run the calibration software and check results
> for sanity, etc, etc... Not what you would call "cheap", but the end
> result is pretty good.

Imagine the Zoom H3, ready to use, but with complete specs and
schematics, a calibration file and a documented calibration procedure,
for $100 more. Ir would be a commercial success.

Marc
David Pickett
2018-09-16 07:10:11 UTC
Permalink
At 03:07 16-09-18, Marc Lavallée wrote:

>Le 15/09/2018 à 14:17, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano a écrit :
>
>>[*] find and buy all components, 3d print all
>>parts, make or order PCBs, assemble printed
>>circuit boards (you need pretty good soldering
>>skills), connect everything together (again,
>>good manual dexterity), find a space for doing
>>the calibration measurements, make _good_
>>calibration measurements (not trivial, needs
>>skill, good speaker and reference microphone),
>>run the calibration software and check results
>>for sanity, etc, etc... Not what you would call
>>"cheap", but the end result is pretty good.
>
>Imagine the Zoom H3, ready to use, but with
>complete specs and schematics, a calibration
>file and a documented calibration procedure, for
>$100 more. Ir would be a commercial success.

In my view it is a question of taking the
purchaser seriously and treating him/her with
respect. If you buy loudspeakers, a pair of
headphones, amplifiers, A/D-D/A convertors, an
analog turntable, a pickup cartridge -- or
anything for home audio that is intended to be of
high quality -- you can read full specifications before you buy.

I see no reason why these should not be a part of
the product offering in the case of a surround
microphone. It is not a question of giving away trade secrets.

And I dont think their addition would justify an additional cost of €/$100

David
Ralf R Radermacher
2018-09-16 09:31:04 UTC
Permalink
Am 16.09.18 um 03:07 schrieb Marc Lavallée:

> Imagine the Zoom H3, ready to use, but with complete specs and
> schematics, a calibration file and a documented calibration procedure,
> for $100 more. Ir would be a commercial success.

Methinks their marketing department know quite well what they're doing.
I could come up with a dozen things they could have done better or
differently with their other portable recorders. Still, they're selling
like hot cakes. There's something like a sweet spot for pricing if
you're targeting the non-pro consumer market.

I for one can't wait to spend 350 USD on the H3 but I'd think twice at
450. Seriously, how many people care about numerical specs, apart from a
handful of freaks on this list?

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - Köln/Cologne, Germany
Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com
Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
Web : http://www.fotoralf.de
Eero Aro
2018-09-16 09:45:37 UTC
Permalink
Ralf R Radermacher wrote:

> Methinks their marketing department know quite well what they're doing.
> I could come up with a dozen things they could have done better or
> differently with their other portable recorders. Still, they're selling
> like hot cakes. There's something like a sweet spot for pricing if
> you're targeting the non-pro consumer market.
>
> I for one can't wait to spend 350 USD on the H3 but I'd think twice at
> 450. Seriously, how many people care about numerical specs, apart from a
> handful of freaks on this list?
>
> Ralf

Exactly my thoughts as well. Thank you Ralf for saving me for the need to
write it.

Eero
Drew Kirkland
2018-09-16 09:47:25 UTC
Permalink
L

On Sun, 16 Sep 2018, 10:45 Eero Aro, <***@dlc.fi> wrote:

> Ralf R Radermacher wrote:
>
> > Methinks their marketing department know quite well what they're doing.
> > I could come up with a dozen things they could have done better or
> > differently with their other portable recorders. Still, they're selling
> > like hot cakes. There's something like a sweet spot for pricing if
> > you're targeting the non-pro consumer market.
> >
> > I for one can't wait to spend 350 USD on the H3 but I'd think twice at
> > 450. Seriously, how many people care about numerical specs, apart from a
> > handful of freaks on this list?
> >
> > Ralf
>
> Exactly my thoughts as well. Thank you Ralf for saving me for the need to
> write it.
>
> Eero
> _______________________________________________
> Sursound mailing list
> ***@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
--





Drew Kirkland
1 campbleton cottage
Hunterston Estate
KA23 9QF
07876 238 608
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Drew Kirkland
2018-09-16 09:56:39 UTC
Permalink
I think maybe that's a bit harsh, I know what you mean but due to a lax
attitude in audio we now have a dynamic free industry, apart from a couple
of major players the whole industry is relying on compression and
electronics rather than design and good engineering.
This is the legacy of mp3 and poor quality teaching within the industry as
a whole. It is something that has gradually become endemic, most engineers
under 40 have had limited access to true anolog source and playback
equipment and very few in my experience have an lp collection where
dynamics are an integral part of the recording.
It's been a situation the industry has kind of sleepwalked into. So I think
it important we keep the "freeks" on board

Drew

On Sun, 16 Sep 2018, 10:47 Drew Kirkland, <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> L
>
> On Sun, 16 Sep 2018, 10:45 Eero Aro, <***@dlc.fi> wrote:
>
>> Ralf R Radermacher wrote:
>>
>> > Methinks their marketing department know quite well what they're doing.
>> > I could come up with a dozen things they could have done better or
>> > differently with their other portable recorders. Still, they're selling
>> > like hot cakes. There's something like a sweet spot for pricing if
>> > you're targeting the non-pro consumer market.
>> >
>> > I for one can't wait to spend 350 USD on the H3 but I'd think twice at
>> > 450. Seriously, how many people care about numerical specs, apart from
>> a
>> > handful of freaks on this list?
>> >
>> > Ralf
>>
>> Exactly my thoughts as well. Thank you Ralf for saving me for the need to
>> write it.
>>
>> Eero
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sursound mailing list
>> ***@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
> Drew Kirkland
> 1 campbleton cottage
> Hunterston Estate
> KA23 9QF
> 07876 238 608
>
--





Drew Kirkland
1 campbleton cottage
Hunterston Estate
KA23 9QF
07876 238 608
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David Pickett
2018-09-16 10:37:18 UTC
Permalink
At 11:56 16-09-18, Drew Kirkland wrote:

>I think maybe that's a bit harsh, I know what you mean but due to a lax
>attitude in audio we now have a dynamic free industry, apart from a couple
>of major players the whole industry is relying on compression and
>electronics rather than design and good engineering.

Actually, it's largely the minor players who are keeping the flame
alive: e.g. Pentatone, Tacet, 2L, etc, etc.

>This is the legacy of mp3 and poor quality teaching within the
industry as a whole.

Unfortunately, most of the teaching bears no relationship to "the
industry" and is done by people who have no inside experience of
professional audio at the highest levels.

>It is something that has gradually become endemic, most engineers
>under 40 have had limited access to true anolog source and playback
>equipment and very few in my experience have an lp collection where
>dynamics are an integral part of the recording.

There is no excuse for this. The equipment is available on Ebay, etc,
and LPs pressed in the 60s and 70s are available for peanuts. Almost
every week I visit one of the several second hand record shops where
I live and for 1-3 EUR per disc walk out with excellently recorded
LPs in pristine condition, the sound of which rivals (and sometimes
exceeds) the quality of CDs and hi-res files when played on my
Thorens TD124 and Sumiko cartridge. This gear did not cost an arm and
a leg to assemble. If you want to spend more, read Stereophile magazine!

David
Marc Lavallée
2018-09-16 13:52:23 UTC
Permalink
Le 16/09/2018 à 05:45, Eero Aro a écrit :

> Ralf R Radermacher wrote:
>
>> Methinks their marketing department know quite well what they're
>> doing. I could come up with a dozen things they could have done
>> better or differently with their other portable recorders. Still,
>> they're selling like hot cakes. There's something like a sweet spot
>> for pricing if you're targeting the non-pro consumer market.
>>
>> I for one can't wait to spend 350 USD on the H3 but I'd think twice
>> at 450. Seriously, how many people care about numerical specs, apart
>> from a handful of freaks on this list?
>>
>> Ralf
>
> Exactly my thoughts as well. Thank you Ralf for saving me for the need to
> write it.

I cut my hairs yesterday, but let me fly my freak flag high.

I care for decent and honest gear that I can afford and use without
turning myself into a fake professional. It's not because I'm an
hobbyist that I don't care about numbers; I was lucky enough to get some
education, so I want to use my brain and not only my small wallet.

I bought a Twirling720 Lite for less than $200 and it's basically a toy;
its only value (to me) is that I can hack into it (after some reverse
engineering and a bit of programming), hoping that I can make it into a
usable microphone. But I probably won't, because I don't know how to
calibrate a microphone. I need someone to do it for me, and it's ok, but
I also like to consider that I could do it myself; this quality is part
of the value. It seems that an Ambisonics microphone is like a piano;
tuning it is part of the deal. It could be that non-calibrated and/or
MEM-based "solutions" can work just fine for many years, but I'm a freak...

My options to get a non-MEMs Ambisonics microphone are: Tetramic, RØDE
NT-SF1, Ambeo, Brahma, Twirling720, Zoom H3, I like the self-contained
"products" that don't require to carry and operate a bulky external (and
expensive) recorder with XLR connectors and wires, like the Brahma, the
Twirling720 and the Zoom H3.

I always read that calibrating an Ambisonics microphone is precisely
what makes it Ambisonics. So why, oh why, because there's now a VR
market, it would no longer be the case?

Le 16/09/2018 à 09:11, Ralf R Radermacher a écrit :

> Am 16.09.18 um 14:47 schrieb Steven Boardman:
>> Well i would rather be a 'freak' then!
>
> Nothing wrong with that. More often than not, I'm one myself. I just
> wouldn't expect a supplier targeting a mass market to cater for my
> quirks and oddities.

Is Zoom only in for the money? How much of their production will end
floating in the Great Pacific garbage patch (like GoPros)?

Marc



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Ralf R Radermacher
2018-09-16 16:45:40 UTC
Permalink
Am 16.09.18 um 15:52 schrieb Marc Lavallée:

> I cut my hairs yesterday, but let me fly my freak flag high.

Welcome to the Ambisonic freak show, then. :-)

> I always read that calibrating an Ambisonics microphone is precisely
> what makes it Ambisonics.
I've just had a look on Rode's website and can't find the slightest hint
about calibration for their NT-SF1. Is there anyone who owns and and can
enlighten us?

> Is Zoom only in for the money?

Sure. Like it or not, but that's capitalism.

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - Köln/Cologne, Germany
Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com
Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
Web : http://www.fotoralf.de
Marc Lavallée
2018-09-16 18:59:35 UTC
Permalink
Le 16/09/2018 à 12:45, Ralf R Radermacher a écrit :

> Am 16.09.18 um 15:52 schrieb Marc Lavallée:
>> I always read that calibrating an Ambisonics microphone is precisely
>> what makes it Ambisonics.
> I've just had a look on Rode's website and can't find the slightest
> hint about calibration for their NT-SF1. Is there anyone who owns and
> and can enlighten us?

In a ideal world, the custom TF-45C capsule could be so good that a
generic calibration is enough, and so stable that no further calibration
is needed.

>> Is Zoom only in for the money?
> Sure. Like it or not, but that's capitalism.

Zoom have a good reputation. Fernando will hopefully tell us more about
the H3 after he tries to calibrate it (and compare it with the default
calibration). If the H3 can be calibrated, it could be an excellent
choice. Also, like the Brahma, the H3 could be used to create a better
microphone (with larger, better and quieter capsules).

There's hope. No need to use the c word... :-)

Marc
David Pickett
2018-09-16 10:09:49 UTC
Permalink
At 11:31 16-09-18, Ralf R Radermacher wrote:

>Am 16.09.18 um 03:07 schrieb Marc Lavallée:
>
>>Imagine the Zoom H3, ready to use, but with
>>complete specs and schematics, a calibration
>>file and a documented calibration procedure,
>>for $100 more. Ir would be a commercial success.
>
>Methinks their marketing department know quite
>well what they're doing. I could come up with a
>dozen things they could have done better or
>differently with their other portable recorders.
>Still, they're selling like hot cakes. There's
>something like a sweet spot for pricing if
>you're targeting the non-pro consumer market.
>
>I for one can't wait to spend 350 USD on the H3
>but I'd think twice at 450. Seriously, how many
>people care about numerical specs, apart from a handful of freaks on this list?

More to the point, how many people (including
those here) can actually play back Ambisonics at home -- minimally as 4.0?

David
Paul Hodges
2018-09-16 11:26:28 UTC
Permalink
-- At 11:31 16-09-18, Ralf R Radermacher wrote:

> Seriously, how many
> people care about numerical specs, apart from a handful of freaks on
> this list?

Not so many. But I wonder to what extent the requirement for
calibration for good results is in any case being lessened by
improvements in consistency of mass-produced capsules. Røde seem to
imply something about that under the heading of improvements in
manufacturing.

--On 16 September 2018 12:09 +0200 David Pickett <***@fugato.com> wrote:

> More to the point, how many people (including those here) can
> actually play back Ambisonics at home -- minimally as 4.0?

I have a permanent 4.0 setup. Of course, I know various people with
irregularly arranged 5.1 setups - but they have no interest in audio.

Paul

--
Paul Hodges
umashankar manthravadi
2018-09-16 11:41:28 UTC
Permalink
I match bulk purchased Chinese capsules for my Brahma Microphones and it has become increasingly easy to find sets of four matching for gain and front to back ratios.

But matching capsules is only one part of calibration.



umashankar



Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10



________________________________
From: Sursound <sursound-***@music.vt.edu> on behalf of Paul Hodges <pwh-***@cassland.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2018 4:56:28 PM
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Zoom H3-VR

-- At 11:31 16-09-18, Ralf R Radermacher wrote:

> Seriously, how many
> people care about numerical specs, apart from a handful of freaks on
> this list?

Not so many. But I wonder to what extent the requirement for
calibration for good results is in any case being lessened by
improvements in consistency of mass-produced capsules. Røde seem to
imply something about that under the heading of improvements in
manufacturing.

--On 16 September 2018 12:09 +0200 David Pickett <***@fugato.com> wrote:

> More to the point, how many people (including those here) can
> actually play back Ambisonics at home -- minimally as 4.0?

I have a permanent 4.0 setup. Of course, I know various people with
irregularly arranged 5.1 setups - but they have no interest in audio.

Paul

--
Paul Hodges

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Ralf R Radermacher
2018-09-16 12:18:38 UTC
Permalink
Am 16.09.18 um 13:26 schrieb Paul Hodges:

> But I wonder to what extent the requirement for
> calibration for good results is in any case being lessened by
> improvements in consistency of mass-produced capsules. Røde seem to
> imply something about that under the heading of improvements in
> manufacturing.

There was a time when they sold matched stereo pairs of their
microphones with a premium. That stopped a few years ago because, as
they told me, there is no point in doing so anymore.

We have reached an age where automatic precision machining equipment
enables a consistency that would have required highly skilled workers
and a lot of testing and selecting, only a decade or two ago.

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - Köln/Cologne, Germany
Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com
Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
Web : http://www.fotoralf.de
Steven Boardman
2018-09-16 12:47:26 UTC
Permalink
Well i would rather be a 'freak' then!
Maybe leave those kind of comments for ones youtube trolling?

S

On Sun, 16 Sep 2018, 10:31 Ralf R Radermacher, <***@gmx.de> wrote:

> Am 16.09.18 um 03:07 schrieb Marc Lavallée:
>
> > Imagine the Zoom H3, ready to use, but with complete specs and
> > schematics, a calibration file and a documented calibration procedure,
> > for $100 more. Ir would be a commercial success.
>
> Methinks their marketing department know quite well what they're doing.
> I could come up with a dozen things they could have done better or
> differently with their other portable recorders. Still, they're selling
> like hot cakes. There's something like a sweet spot for pricing if
> you're targeting the non-pro consumer market.
>
> I for one can't wait to spend 350 USD on the H3 but I'd think twice at
> 450. Seriously, how many people care about numerical specs, apart from a
> handful of freaks on this list?
>
> Ralf
>
> --
> Ralf R. Radermacher - Köln/Cologne, Germany
> Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com
> Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
> Web : http://www.fotoralf.de
> _______________________________________________
> Sursound mailing list
> ***@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
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Ralf R Radermacher
2018-09-16 13:11:56 UTC
Permalink
Am 16.09.18 um 14:47 schrieb Steven Boardman:
> Well i would rather be a 'freak' then!

Nothing wrong with that. More often than not, I'm one myself. I just
wouldn't expect a supplier targeting a mass market to cater for my
quirks and oddities.

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - Köln/Cologne, Germany
Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com
Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
Web : http://www.fotoralf.de
Eero Aro
2018-09-16 13:28:19 UTC
Permalink
Ralf R Radermacher:
> Nothing wrong with that. More often than not, I'm one myself. I just
> wouldn't expect a supplier targeting a mass market to cater for my
> quirks and oddities.

What hasn't been said in this thread, is that the H3-VR is clearly
targeted to the
people who shoot 3D video with 3D video recorders in the matching price
class.

If you look at the 3D or 360 videos in the Web, they have mono or two
channel
stereo sound. Something is missing. You can turn the video image 360 degrees
around, but the sound orientation doesn't change at all with mono sound and
you don't get any kind of auditory cues about the directions. With stereo or
binaural sound it isn't much better, as the auditory cues don't match
with the
picture dimensions, there is no front-to- back separation.

People who shoot the 360 video with three GoPro cameras are not the ones
who invest
into a Sennheiser Ambeo for sound. They are the H3 buyers.

Eero
Ralf R Radermacher
2018-09-15 13:16:10 UTC
Permalink
Am 15.09.18 um 12:19 schrieb Eero Aro:

> For about thirty years I have been waiting for an Ambisonic microphone
> for a non-professional user. I welcome Zoom's new product with pleasure!

Same here. Can't wait to get one.

Wondering if a 350 USD mic with built-in recorder will be useable as a
professional tool seems to me quite ... errr... unprofessional. Reminds
me of those articles in British photo rags of the 1980s with titles like
"How to become a press photographer with a Zenit and a megazoom".

I've been playing with Zoom recorders for over ten years and I've been
having lots of fun with them. More so indeed than I've ever had with a
whole O/B van full of equipment in my days as a pro audio engineer.
They're great little toys but I wouldn't dream of using one for serious
work.

Horses for courses.

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - Köln/Cologne, Germany
Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com
Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
Web : http://www.fotoralf.de
Augustine Leudar
2018-09-15 13:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Ha - Ive used them for professional work as well as mor ehi end stuff like
Nagras etc - and Ive even had a few pros asking me what mics I used -
imagine the horror on their faces.....

On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 at 14:16, Ralf R Radermacher <***@gmx.de> wrote:

> Am 15.09.18 um 12:19 schrieb Eero Aro:
>
> > For about thirty years I have been waiting for an Ambisonic microphone
> > for a non-professional user. I welcome Zoom's new product with pleasure!
>
> Same here. Can't wait to get one.
>
> Wondering if a 350 USD mic with built-in recorder will be useable as a
> professional tool seems to me quite ... errr... unprofessional. Reminds
> me of those articles in British photo rags of the 1980s with titles like
> "How to become a press photographer with a Zenit and a megazoom".
>
> I've been playing with Zoom recorders for over ten years and I've been
> having lots of fun with them. More so indeed than I've ever had with a
> whole O/B van full of equipment in my days as a pro audio engineer.
> They're great little toys but I wouldn't dream of using one for serious
> work.
>
> Horses for courses.
>
> Ralf
>
> --
> Ralf R. Radermacher - Köln/Cologne, Germany
> Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com
> Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
> Web : http://www.fotoralf.de
> _______________________________________________
> Sursound mailing list
> ***@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>


--
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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David Pickett
2018-09-15 13:50:14 UTC
Permalink
At 12:19 15-09-18, Eero Aro wrote:
>David Pickett wrote:
>
>>This is a welcome price, but unfortunately, for that kind of money
>>you dont get any numerical specifications, graphs, or guarantee of
>>capsule matching, repeatability or variance between examples, all
>>of which determine its potential value as a professional tool.
>
>For about thirty years I have been waiting for an Ambisonic microphone
>for a non-professional user. I welcome Zoom's new product with pleasure!
>
>I have been using my employer's Soundfield Mk IV and V and the ST250.
>All of them have been noisy and expensive buggers not suited for my pocket
>money to buy one for my personal use. All other, later Ambisonic mic models
>have also been and are too expensive for me to buy. That's why the Zoom H3 is
>welcome and it will surely find buyers. There is a market gap for a reasonably
>priced Ambisonic microphone.
>
>I do understand that the H3 will not be technically and audio quality wise
>at as high level as products that cost ten on more times more, but the biggest
>problem with all Ambisonic gear during the years has been that there hasn't
>been equipment for the ordinary home user. Only some decoders, such as
>the Minims were targeted for the home, and even them were a bit complicated
>for Joe D to set up.

I totally agree about the fundamental inadequacies of the Soundfield
mics that Eero lists. But I dont see why there cannot today be better
products that dont cost the earth. Technical quality should not be
assumed to be suspect on grounds of price alone. Quality control is
measurable and can be done automatically in this day and age. By
using electret capsules and digital measurement techniques, modern
microphones can be mass produced more cheaply than the designs of 50
years ago. That being the case, I do not understand why today we get
no published specifications of FR, polar diagram, FR, with +/- n dB tolerances.

David
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