Discussion:
Simple Software to Play a 6-channel WAV File (Windows)?
(too old to reply)
len moskowitz
2017-10-25 01:53:31 UTC
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I'd appreciate it if someone could recommend a very simple Windows audio
player that can play a 6-channel WAV file to a 6-speaker ring.



A DAW will be too complicated for this user and application.



Len Moskowitz (***@core-sound.com)
Core Sound LLC
www.core-sound.com
Home of TetraMic and OctoMic
Sampo Syreeni
2017-10-25 02:06:01 UTC
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On 2017-10-24, len moskowitz wrote:

> I'd appreciate it if someone could recommend a very simple Windows audio
> player that can play a 6-channel WAV file to a 6-speaker ring.

I'd also appreciate the simplest-most setup for Ubuntu, connected via
HDMI to a well-versed home theatre amp. Then four identical speakers in
a roughly 3:2 aspect ratio -- after a decade and a half, I'm about to
*finally* get a setup capable of basic pantophony myself! :)

Oh, and on that note, is there any dance music out there in any of the
common, playable, pantophonic (?) ambisonic formats?

> A DAW will be too complicated for this user and application.

I could do with a FLOSS DAW, but an out-of-the-box player software would
be preferred.
--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - ***@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
David Pickett
2017-10-25 05:59:14 UTC
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Len,

I seem to recall that VLC will do this if set up correctly with a
multichannel sound card (I have RME UFX), but maybe that is not
simple enough for you. Alternatively, a simple HTML5 page such as
this can be used locally: http://www.fugato.com/pickett/surround-tests.shtml

Although I use only 4 channels these are 6-channel mp4 files: the
format was chosen simply because mp4 takes up less space than WAV
files. Possibly other browsers have been updated in the past two years.

Marc may have better recommendations. :)

David

At 03:53 25-10-17, len moskowitz wrote:
>I'd appreciate it if someone could recommend a very simple Windows
>audio player that can play a 6-channel WAV file to a 6-speaker ring.
>
>A DAW will be too complicated for this user and application.
>
>Len Moskowitz (***@core-sound.com)
>Core Sound LLC
>www.core-sound.com
>Home of TetraMic and OctoMic
>_______________________________________________
Dave Malham
2017-10-25 07:55:27 UTC
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Hi,
Just a word of warning, take care using compressed formats like mp4 for
storing B format. If the compression used is lossy, this can screw up the
decoding since phase errors can result in the sum and difference equations
involved producing wrong results. Of course, storing pre-decoded signals in
a compressed format doesn't suffer from this.

Dave

PS Len - congrats on the OctoMic.

On 25 October 2017 at 06:59, David Pickett <***@fugato.com> wrote:

> Len,
>
> I seem to recall that VLC will do this if set up correctly with a
> multichannel sound card (I have RME UFX), but maybe that is not simple
> enough for you. Alternatively, a simple HTML5 page such as this can be used
> locally: http://www.fugato.com/pickett/surround-tests.shtml
>
> Although I use only 4 channels these are 6-channel mp4 files: the format
> was chosen simply because mp4 takes up less space than WAV files. Possibly
> other browsers have been updated in the past two years.
>
> Marc may have better recommendations. :)
>
> David
>
> At 03:53 25-10-17, len moskowitz wrote:
>
>> I'd appreciate it if someone could recommend a very simple Windows audio
>> player that can play a 6-channel WAV file to a 6-speaker ring.
>>
>> A DAW will be too complicated for this user and application.
>>
>> Len Moskowitz (***@core-sound.com)
>> Core Sound LLC
>> www.core-sound.com
>> Home of TetraMic and OctoMic
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sursound mailing list
> ***@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>



--

As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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David Pickett
2017-10-25 10:30:11 UTC
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At 09:55 25-10-17, Dave Malham wrote:

> Just a word of warning, take care using compressed formats like mp4 for
>storing B format. If the compression used is lossy, this can screw up the
>decoding since phase errors can result in the sum and difference equations
>involved producing wrong results. Of course, storing pre-decoded signals in
>a compressed format doesn't suffer from this.

Dave,

I always add add shelf filtering and then decode from B format to 4.0
before encoding to MP4. I dont see why there should not also be phase
problems with encoding 4.0 signals in MP4 (why do you say not?); but
I have never noticed any.

David
Dave Malham
2017-10-25 11:12:53 UTC
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I should have said "storing pre-decoded signals in a compressed format has
less potential to be problematic" since phase errors likely to upset
pre-decoded material would probably also cause problems with stereo which
hopefully would have been picked up and dealt with during testing. I should
say here that that's just what I feel likely to be the case, I can't say
that I've actually tested it.

Dave

On 25 October 2017 at 11:30, David Pickett <***@fugato.com> wrote:

> At 09:55 25-10-17, Dave Malham wrote:
>
> > Just a word of warning, take care using compressed formats like mp4 for
> >storing B format. If the compression used is lossy, this can screw up the
> >decoding since phase errors can result in the sum and difference equations
> >involved producing wrong results. Of course, storing pre-decoded signals
> in
> >a compressed format doesn't suffer from this.
>
> Dave,
>
> I always add add shelf filtering and then decode from B format to 4.0
> before encoding to MP4. I dont see why there should not also be phase
> problems with encoding 4.0 signals in MP4 (why do you say not?); but I have
> never noticed any.
>
> David
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sursound mailing list
> ***@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>



--

As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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David Pickett
2017-10-25 12:08:49 UTC
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But I have been thinking about it -- fatal!

If you start off from WXY, which is what I use, and make these into
4.0, you have merely done a linear transform (a sophisticated LR-->SD
relationship). As this is totally lossless, any added phase anomalies
either before or after the transform, while they may not give the
same effect, could be significant. All I can say is that I have not
heard any significant degradation of my recordings when coding them
into high rate MP4 and playing them over the internet before
subsequent decoding.

I am not trying to be awkward, just trying to make sense of this!

David

At 13:12 25-10-17, Dave Malham wrote:
>I should have said "storing pre-decoded signals in a compressed format has
>less potential to be problematic" since phase errors likely to upset
>pre-decoded material would probably also cause problems with stereo which
>hopefully would have been picked up and dealt with during testing. I should
>say here that that's just what I feel likely to be the case, I can't say
>that I've actually tested it.
>
> Dave
>
>On 25 October 2017 at 11:30, David Pickett <***@fugato.com> wrote:
>
>> At 09:55 25-10-17, Dave Malham wrote:
>>
>> > Just a word of warning, take care using compressed formats like mp4 for
>> >storing B format. If the compression used is lossy, this can screw up the
>> >decoding since phase errors can result in the sum and difference equations
>> >involved producing wrong results. Of course, storing pre-decoded signals
>> in
>> >a compressed format doesn't suffer from this.
>>
>> Dave,
>>
>> I always add add shelf filtering and then decode from B format to 4.0
>> before encoding to MP4. I dont see why there should not also be phase
>> problems with encoding 4.0 signals in MP4 (why do you say not?); but I have
>> never noticed any.
>>
>> David
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sursound mailing list
>> ***@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>>
>
>
>
>--
>
>As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
>
>These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University
>
>Dave Malham
>Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
>The University of York
>York YO10 5DD
>UK
>
>'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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>***@music.vt.edu
>https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
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Marc Lavallée
2017-10-25 12:45:28 UTC
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Raw Message
Just a question: despite possible degradation of the decoded
ambisonics stream (due to phase errors), could it be that our perception
mechanisms (from the ears to the brain) can "fix" some distortions?
Also, what are the frequency ranges affected by phase errors (for
example in a AAC or Opus multi-channel stream) that could induce
perceptual problems? What's the limit: 16, 12, 8 or 4Khz?

To what extent do we have to care about Hi-Fi and High Resolution
when dealing with Ambisonics? This is an important issue for the
acceptance of Ambisonics... Do we need a fusion reactor to enjoy
Ambisonics? ;-)

--
Marc

Le Wed, 25 Oct 2017 14:08:49 +0200
David Pickett <***@fugato.com> a écrit:

> But I have been thinking about it -- fatal!
>
> If you start off from WXY, which is what I use, and make these into
> 4.0, you have merely done a linear transform (a sophisticated LR-->SD
> relationship). As this is totally lossless, any added phase anomalies
> either before or after the transform, while they may not give the
> same effect, could be significant. All I can say is that I have not
> heard any significant degradation of my recordings when coding them
> into high rate MP4 and playing them over the internet before
> subsequent decoding.
>
> I am not trying to be awkward, just trying to make sense of this!
>
> David
>
> At 13:12 25-10-17, Dave Malham wrote:
> >I should have said "storing pre-decoded signals in a compressed
> >format has less potential to be problematic" since phase errors
> >likely to upset pre-decoded material would probably also cause
> >problems with stereo which hopefully would have been picked up and
> >dealt with during testing. I should say here that that's just what
> >I feel likely to be the case, I can't say that I've actually tested
> >it.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >On 25 October 2017 at 11:30, David Pickett <***@fugato.com> wrote:
> >
> >> At 09:55 25-10-17, Dave Malham wrote:
> >>
> >> > Just a word of warning, take care using compressed formats
> >> > like mp4 for
> >> >storing B format. If the compression used is lossy, this can
> >> >screw up the decoding since phase errors can result in the sum
> >> >and difference equations involved producing wrong results. Of
> >> >course, storing pre-decoded signals
> >> in
> >> >a compressed format doesn't suffer from this.
> >>
> >> Dave,
> >>
> >> I always add add shelf filtering and then decode from B format to
> >> 4.0 before encoding to MP4. I dont see why there should not also
> >> be phase problems with encoding 4.0 signals in MP4 (why do you
> >> say not?); but I have never noticed any.
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Sursound mailing list
> >> ***@music.vt.edu
> >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> >> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >
> >As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
> >
> >These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the
> >University
> >
> >Dave Malham
> >Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
> >The University of York
> >York YO10 5DD
> >UK
> >
> >'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
> >-------------- next part --------------
> >An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >URL:
> ><https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/201710>25/25ceb978/attachment.html>
> >_______________________________________________
> >Sursound mailing list
> >***@music.vt.edu
> >https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> >here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sursound mailing list
> ***@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
umashankar manthravadi
2017-10-25 13:12:54 UTC
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Raw Message
Being a low budget man, this has been of considerable interest to me. Does ambisonic systems have to be of the same quality as a stereo system? I doubt very much. For one thing, a stereo system has to excite the room in which it sits. That means power and extended frequency response. The cheapest system I tried was two “5.1” speaker sets, each costing about 10USD. I did not persist with it, but was very satisfactory for the money. Two subwoofers too. (even if they woofed at about 100 Hz). I have KEF 5 speakers and 50 watt per channel eight watt amplifier, and it is rarely stressed.



I think there will be similar tradeoffs in compression, phase errors etc which we have really explored



umashankar



Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10



________________________________
From: Sursound <sursound-***@music.vt.edu> on behalf of Marc Lavallée <***@hacklava.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 6:15:28 PM
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Simple Software to Play a 6-channel WAV File (Windows)?


Just a question: despite possible degradation of the decoded
ambisonics stream (due to phase errors), could it be that our perception
mechanisms (from the ears to the brain) can "fix" some distortions?
Also, what are the frequency ranges affected by phase errors (for
example in a AAC or Opus multi-channel stream) that could induce
perceptual problems? What's the limit: 16, 12, 8 or 4Khz?

To what extent do we have to care about Hi-Fi and High Resolution
when dealing with Ambisonics? This is an important issue for the
acceptance of Ambisonics... Do we need a fusion reactor to enjoy
Ambisonics? ;-)

--
Marc

Le Wed, 25 Oct 2017 14:08:49 +0200
David Pickett <***@fugato.com> a écrit:

> But I have been thinking about it -- fatal!
>
> If you start off from WXY, which is what I use, and make these into
> 4.0, you have merely done a linear transform (a sophisticated LR-->SD
> relationship). As this is totally lossless, any added phase anomalies
> either before or after the transform, while they may not give the
> same effect, could be significant. All I can say is that I have not
> heard any significant degradation of my recordings when coding them
> into high rate MP4 and playing them over the internet before
> subsequent decoding.
>
> I am not trying to be awkward, just trying to make sense of this!
>
> David
>
> At 13:12 25-10-17, Dave Malham wrote:
> >I should have said "storing pre-decoded signals in a compressed
> >format has less potential to be problematic" since phase errors
> >likely to upset pre-decoded material would probably also cause
> >problems with stereo which hopefully would have been picked up and
> >dealt with during testing. I should say here that that's just what
> >I feel likely to be the case, I can't say that I've actually tested
> >it.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >On 25 October 2017 at 11:30, David Pickett <***@fugato.com> wrote:
> >
> >> At 09:55 25-10-17, Dave Malham wrote:
> >>
> >> > Just a word of warning, take care using compressed formats
> >> > like mp4 for
> >> >storing B format. If the compression used is lossy, this can
> >> >screw up the decoding since phase errors can result in the sum
> >> >and difference equations involved producing wrong results. Of
> >> >course, storing pre-decoded signals
> >> in
> >> >a compressed format doesn't suffer from this.
> >>
> >> Dave,
> >>
> >> I always add add shelf filtering and then decode from B format to
> >> 4.0 before encoding to MP4. I dont see why there should not also
> >> be phase problems with encoding 4.0 signals in MP4 (why do you
> >> say not?); but I have never noticed any.
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Sursound mailing list
> >> ***@music.vt.edu
> >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> >> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >
> >As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
> >
> >These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the
> >University
> >
> >Dave Malham
> >Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
> >The University of York
> >York YO10 5DD
> >UK
> >
> >'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
> >-------------- next part --------------
> >An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >URL:
> ><https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/201710>25/25ceb978/attachment.html>
> >_______________________________________________
> >Sursound mailing list
> >***@music.vt.edu
> >https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> >here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sursound mailing list
> ***@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.

_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
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https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
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John Leonard
2017-10-25 11:14:55 UTC
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The Audio Player in Plogue Bidule will do this. You can get fancy with remote starts, if you like.

John

Please note new email address & direct line phone number
email: ***@johnleonard.uk
phone +44 (0)20 3286 5942


> On 25 Oct 2017, at 02:53, len moskowitz <***@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> I'd appreciate it if someone could recommend a very simple Windows audio player that can play a 6-channel WAV file to a 6-speaker ring.
>
>
>
> A DAW will be too complicated for this user and application.
>
mick ritchie
2017-10-25 12:57:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi len

depends on how you want to use it - Audacity will play back 4/6/8 channel files though wont allow routing so they
just output to 1-n - great for quick testing but not for sharing.
I did do a bunch of streaming tests 5 years ago and settled on 4ch wavs in a quicktime movie - no loss but for streaming
or sharing I had to create a QT ref movie with the channels allocated as the movie itself wouldnt remember and reverted back
to same mono output for each channel. They worked in VLC and even itunes shock horror as long as i had a multichannel interface as default

I'll try an mp4 when i get some time - if I just create a 4channel file with duplicated mono audio and just test null phasing
after Ive encoded



mick

On 25 Oct 2017, at 02:53, len moskowitz wrote:

> I'd appreciate it if someone could recommend a very simple Windows audio player that can play a 6-channel WAV file to a 6-speaker ring.
>
>
>
> A DAW will be too complicated for this user and application.
>
>
>
> Len Moskowitz (***@core-sound.com)
> Core Sound LLC
> www.core-sound.com
> Home of TetraMic and OctoMic
> _______________________________________________
> Sursound mailing list
> ***@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
mick ritchie
2017-10-25 16:46:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Just apologised to len for a brain short circuit - Audacity will record but not play back more than stereo - drrrrr

So of this ilk Reaper is my usual simple player though id ahve htought there must be simple multichannelplayers around these days

mick


On 25 Oct 2017, at 13:57, mick ritchie wrote:

> Hi len
>
> depends on how you want to use it - Audacity will play back 4/6/8 channel files though wont allow routing so they
> just output to 1-n - great for quick testing but not for sharing.
> I did do a bunch of streaming tests 5 years ago and settled on 4ch wavs in a quicktime movie - no loss but for streaming
> or sharing I had to create a QT ref movie with the channels allocated as the movie itself wouldnt remember and reverted back
> to same mono output for each channel. They worked in VLC and even itunes shock horror as long as i had a multichannel interface as default
>
> I'll try an mp4 when i get some time - if I just create a 4channel file with duplicated mono audio and just test null phasing
> after Ive encoded
>
>
>
> mick
>
> On 25 Oct 2017, at 02:53, len moskowitz wrote:
>
>> I'd appreciate it if someone could recommend a very simple Windows audio player that can play a 6-channel WAV file to a 6-speaker ring.
>>
>>
>>
>> A DAW will be too complicated for this user and application.
>>
>>
>>
>> Len Moskowitz (***@core-sound.com)
>> Core Sound LLC
>> www.core-sound.com
>> Home of TetraMic and OctoMic
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sursound mailing list
>> ***@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sursound mailing list
> ***@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Martin Leese
2017-10-25 17:18:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Marc Lavallée wrote:

> Just a question: despite possible degradation of the decoded
> ambisonics stream (due to phase errors), could it be that our perception
> mechanisms (from the ears to the brain) can "fix" some distortions?
> Also, what are the frequency ranges affected by phase errors (for
> example in a AAC or Opus multi-channel stream) that could induce
> perceptual problems? What's the limit: 16, 12, 8 or 4Khz?

Unless I have misunderstood something (which
happens), phase is used to localise sounds
with frequencies between 150 Hz and 1.5 kHz,
so the limit is 1.5 kHz or thereabouts.

Regards,
Martin
--
Martin J Leese
E-mail: martin.leese stanfordalumni.org
Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
Eero Aro
2017-10-25 18:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi All

Wavosaur plays multichannel files and all channels can be routed through
a multichannel interface.

http://tinyurl.com/ydemrofs

But I understood that Len didn't want to use too complicated software?

Do you need/want to use a computer at all?
How about a standalone SD card or HD player?

Eero
Augustine Leudar
2017-10-26 01:43:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
quicktime player does I hink....

On 25 October 2017 at 19:14, Eero Aro <***@dlc.fi> wrote:

> Hi All
>
> Wavosaur plays multichannel files and all channels can be routed through
> a multichannel interface.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ydemrofs
>
> But I understood that Len didn't want to use too complicated software?
>
> Do you need/want to use a computer at all?
> How about a standalone SD card or HD player?
>
> Eero
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sursound mailing list
> ***@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>



--
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Bo-Erik Sandholm
2017-10-26 06:34:02 UTC
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Raw Message
Wavosaur seems really neat as it has VST support, maybe to use on windows
to listen to a b-format file and use a vst for decoding to binaural

On 26 Oct 2017 03:43, "Augustine Leudar" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> quicktime player does I hink....
>
> On 25 October 2017 at 19:14, Eero Aro <***@dlc.fi> wrote:
>
> > Hi All
> >
> > Wavosaur plays multichannel files and all channels can be routed through
> > a multichannel interface.
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/ydemrofs
> >
> > But I understood that Len didn't want to use too complicated software?
> >
> > Do you need/want to use a computer at all?
> > How about a standalone SD card or HD player?
> >
> > Eero
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sursound mailing list
> > ***@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Augustine Leudar
> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> Company Number : NI635217
> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> Belfast BT88LL
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