Discussion:
Questions on Ambisonics and space / VR Radio Theater
(too old to reply)
Martin .
2017-09-21 16:29:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi List,

I have lurked here for a while searching the great archive that is this
list. This is my first post here as a beginner in Ambisonics.

I am a sound designer working on a "VR Radio Theater" project (with no
visual elements). Listeners will be wearing headphones with head trackers
and receive binaural audio. My plan is to play back the sound in
SuperCollider which can process the ambisonic signal as well as the head
tracking data, on a Raspberry Pi or similar mini computer.

At the moment I'm using Reaper and the ATK library to design the
soundscapes, but I am starting to understand that ambisonics has very
different rules when it comes to creating a sense of space, especially
realistic ones, and this is what I would very much like some advice on. An
example would be two people talking and moving about the room that you as a
listener is sitting in the middle of.

What processes do sound designers here use to design realistic ambisonic
spaces? Do you record it all with tetrahedral microphones? Are there good
reverb solutions to achieve this with mono recordings - or to enhance
ambisonic recordings? Do you use conventional DAWs or also game engines
like UE4 and Unity?

The project is still pending funding so I am interested to hear both
low-budget and more expensive approaches.

Thank you all for reading.

Martin
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Sampo Syreeni
2017-09-21 17:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Martin .
What processes do sound designers here use to design realistic
ambisonic spaces?
Unfortunately I'm no sound designer, or even practitioner, but I'll
still but in with a bit of basic theory. I hope you don't mind... ;)
Post by Martin .
Do you record it all with tetrahedral microphones?
I'm reasonably certain that is the exception. Obviously, because
ambisonic is precisely the only end-to-end system in existence which
enables systematic capture of soundscapes, people who do such acoustic
work will be over-represented amongst the system's afficionados. But it
still remains the fact that true soundfield mics are expensive, as are
the musicians playing to them. As such the easiest, least expensive and
so the most common way to exercise the machinery remains doing it
in-studio.
Post by Martin .
Are there good reverb solutions to achieve this with mono recordings -
or to enhance ambisonic recordings? Do you use conventional DAWs or
also game engines like UE4 and Unity?
It depends: do you just want to author audio, or do you want it to track
within a game? Ambisonic uniquely goes for both, equally, so again game
people will be over-represented among the doers. But quite certainly if
you just want to produce a static soundscape, using a game engine would
be overkill.

As for reverb in production, especially including distance from a source
and its movement over time, that side of the picture hasn't really been
set in stone anywhere.

Early work was content to just pan the direct sound, and maybe put in
some Schroeder kinda artificial reverb into the W channel. As for
distance, panning between W and XYZ was used as a quick and dirty fix.

What you really want to do instead is much more complicated. First,
you'll want to maximally decorrelate the reverb over the channels, so
that you'll end up with proper envelopment. For a synthetically panned
source that calls for four mutually decorrelated reverb lines, running
from the source to WXYZ (and more, if going to an higher order). You'd
want to add early slap echoes from walls and other obstacles, just as
you do in stereo reverb modelling, only now panned to come from all
around. If your sound source is moving, you'd want to model Doppler
effects with a delay line, and perhaps even go as far as to model
Doppler in the strongest early echoes as well. Then if you *really*
wanted to go hyperrealistic, you'd want to model near field effects at
least for any close sources and/or echoes.

No current software does all of that, be it DAW or game like. As is
usually the case, we bump into the fact that even plain old ambisonic,
despite its age, remains hitech which is under development. Its full
potential has yet to be unleashed, so that if you aim at the limit,
you'll still often have to roll your own.
--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - ***@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
Axel Drioli
2017-09-21 17:49:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi Martin

I've done my dissertation based on how to practically tell a story using
only spatial audio. You can check out my full paper here
https://www.academia.edu/33968228/Practical_use_of_Spatial_Audio_for_Storytelling
comprehensive of tools used, psychoacoustics aspects and so on. I did avoid
binaural tho, I prefer a multichannel loudspeaker system to reproduce
something like this.

You can create convincing soundscapes combining simple ambisonics beds and
groups of sound particles (check out the software Sound Particles, free for
one year for students).

Reverb is so important in this case, I used Spat for Max for the
spatialisation, combined with Reaper for editing.

How many people are going to experience it in once?

Have a quick read to the paper and let me know, I'm more then happy to help.

Cheers
Axel
Post by Sampo Syreeni
Post by Martin .
What processes do sound designers here use to design realistic
ambisonic spaces?
Unfortunately I'm no sound designer, or even practitioner, but I'll
still but in with a bit of basic theory. I hope you don't mind... ;)
Post by Martin .
Do you record it all with tetrahedral microphones?
I'm reasonably certain that is the exception. Obviously, because
ambisonic is precisely the only end-to-end system in existence which
enables systematic capture of soundscapes, people who do such acoustic
work will be over-represented amongst the system's afficionados. But it
still remains the fact that true soundfield mics are expensive, as are
the musicians playing to them. As such the easiest, least expensive and
so the most common way to exercise the machinery remains doing it
in-studio.
Post by Martin .
Are there good reverb solutions to achieve this with mono recordings -
or to enhance ambisonic recordings? Do you use conventional DAWs or
also game engines like UE4 and Unity?
It depends: do you just want to author audio, or do you want it to track
within a game? Ambisonic uniquely goes for both, equally, so again game
people will be over-represented among the doers. But quite certainly if
you just want to produce a static soundscape, using a game engine would
be overkill.
As for reverb in production, especially including distance from a source
and its movement over time, that side of the picture hasn't really been
set in stone anywhere.
Early work was content to just pan the direct sound, and maybe put in
some Schroeder kinda artificial reverb into the W channel. As for
distance, panning between W and XYZ was used as a quick and dirty fix.
What you really want to do instead is much more complicated. First,
you'll want to maximally decorrelate the reverb over the channels, so
that you'll end up with proper envelopment. For a synthetically panned
source that calls for four mutually decorrelated reverb lines, running
from the source to WXYZ (and more, if going to an higher order). You'd
want to add early slap echoes from walls and other obstacles, just as
you do in stereo reverb modelling, only now panned to come from all
around. If your sound source is moving, you'd want to model Doppler
effects with a delay line, and perhaps even go as far as to model
Doppler in the strongest early echoes as well. Then if you *really*
wanted to go hyperrealistic, you'd want to model near field effects at
least for any close sources and/or echoes.
No current software does all of that, be it DAW or game like. As is
usually the case, we bump into the fact that even plain old ambisonic,
despite its age, remains hitech which is under development. Its full
potential has yet to be unleashed, so that if you aim at the limit,
you'll still often have to roll your own.
--
+358-40-3255353 <http://decoy.iki.fi/front+358-40-3255353>, 025E D175
ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Axel Drioli
Immersive Audio Designer, Editor and Mixer / Music recording and mixing
engineer
Tel:

+44 7460 223640

-
Skype
:

axel.drioli
Concept Creator
// Spatial Audio Producer, Designer and Mixer
of

Eridanus, the 3D Audio Movie.

www.facebook.com/eridanus3dsound
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Dave Hunt
2017-09-22 18:00:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi,

You could try my software, Mac only. A demo version is available at

http://www.3d-audioscape.com/

It attempts to do what you want. It is first order ambisonics with a binaural decoder. There is also a binaural version.

They are built with Max. On new operating systems you may need to install an older version of Java. It should tell you if so, and guide you to what and where to get it.

I haven't done much updating on this site recently, but it should work. At least the manuals may give you an idea of what to do.


Ciao,

Dave
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1. Questions on Ambisonics and space / VR Radio Theater (Martin .)
2. Re: Questions on Ambisonics and space / VR Radio Theater
(Sampo Syreeni)
3. Re: Questions on Ambisonics and space / VR Radio Theater
(Axel Drioli)
Subject: [Sursound] Questions on Ambisonics and space / VR Radio Theater
Date: 21 September 2017 17:29:09 BST
Hi List,
I have lurked here for a while searching the great archive that is this
list. This is my first post here as a beginner in Ambisonics.
I am a sound designer working on a "VR Radio Theater" project (with no
visual elements). Listeners will be wearing headphones with head trackers
and receive binaural audio. My plan is to play back the sound in
SuperCollider which can process the ambisonic signal as well as the head
tracking data, on a Raspberry Pi or similar mini computer.
At the moment I'm using Reaper and the ATK library to design the
soundscapes, but I am starting to understand that ambisonics has very
different rules when it comes to creating a sense of space, especially
realistic ones, and this is what I would very much like some advice on. An
example would be two people talking and moving about the room that you as a
listener is sitting in the middle of.
What processes do sound designers here use to design realistic ambisonic
spaces? Do you record it all with tetrahedral microphones? Are there good
reverb solutions to achieve this with mono recordings - or to enhance
ambisonic recordings? Do you use conventional DAWs or also game engines
like UE4 and Unity?
The project is still pending funding so I am interested to hear both
low-budget and more expensive approaches.
Thank you all for reading.
Martin
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Subject: Re: [Sursound] Questions on Ambisonics and space / VR Radio Theater
Date: 21 September 2017 18:14:27 BST
What processes do sound designers here use to design realistic ambisonic spaces?
Unfortunately I'm no sound designer, or even practitioner, but I'll still but in with a bit of basic theory. I hope you don't mind... ;)
Do you record it all with tetrahedral microphones?
I'm reasonably certain that is the exception. Obviously, because ambisonic is precisely the only end-to-end system in existence which enables systematic capture of soundscapes, people who do such acoustic work will be over-represented amongst the system's afficionados. But it still remains the fact that true soundfield mics are expensive, as are the musicians playing to them. As such the easiest, least expensive and so the most common way to exercise the machinery remains doing it in-studio.
Are there good reverb solutions to achieve this with mono recordings - or to enhance ambisonic recordings? Do you use conventional DAWs or also game engines like UE4 and Unity?
It depends: do you just want to author audio, or do you want it to track within a game? Ambisonic uniquely goes for both, equally, so again game people will be over-represented among the doers. But quite certainly if you just want to produce a static soundscape, using a game engine would be overkill.
As for reverb in production, especially including distance from a source and its movement over time, that side of the picture hasn't really been set in stone anywhere.
Early work was content to just pan the direct sound, and maybe put in some Schroeder kinda artificial reverb into the W channel. As for distance, panning between W and XYZ was used as a quick and dirty fix.
What you really want to do instead is much more complicated. First, you'll want to maximally decorrelate the reverb over the channels, so that you'll end up with proper envelopment. For a synthetically panned source that calls for four mutually decorrelated reverb lines, running from the source to WXYZ (and more, if going to an higher order). You'd want to add early slap echoes from walls and other obstacles, just as you do in stereo reverb modelling, only now panned to come from all around. If your sound source is moving, you'd want to model Doppler effects with a delay line, and perhaps even go as far as to model Doppler in the strongest early echoes as well. Then if you *really* wanted to go hyperrealistic, you'd want to model near field effects at least for any close sources and/or echoes.
No current software does all of that, be it DAW or game like. As is usually the case, we bump into the fact that even plain old ambisonic, despite its age, remains hitech which is under development. Its full potential has yet to be unleashed, so that if you aim at the limit, you'll still often have to roll your own.
--
+358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Questions on Ambisonics and space / VR Radio Theater
Date: 21 September 2017 18:49:09 BST
Hi Martin
I've done my dissertation based on how to practically tell a story using
only spatial audio. You can check out my full paper here
https://www.academia.edu/33968228/Practical_use_of_Spatial_Audio_for_Storytelling
comprehensive of tools used, psychoacoustics aspects and so on. I did avoid
binaural tho, I prefer a multichannel loudspeaker system to reproduce
something like this.
You can create convincing soundscapes combining simple ambisonics beds and
groups of sound particles (check out the software Sound Particles, free for
one year for students).
Reverb is so important in this case, I used Spat for Max for the
spatialisation, combined with Reaper for editing.
How many people are going to experience it in once?
Have a quick read to the paper and let me know, I'm more then happy to help.
Cheers
Axel
Post by Martin .
What processes do sound designers here use to design realistic
ambisonic spaces?
Unfortunately I'm no sound designer, or even practitioner, but I'll
still but in with a bit of basic theory. I hope you don't mind... ;)
Post by Martin .
Do you record it all with tetrahedral microphones?
I'm reasonably certain that is the exception. Obviously, because
ambisonic is precisely the only end-to-end system in existence which
enables systematic capture of soundscapes, people who do such acoustic
work will be over-represented amongst the system's afficionados. But it
still remains the fact that true soundfield mics are expensive, as are
the musicians playing to them. As such the easiest, least expensive and
so the most common way to exercise the machinery remains doing it
in-studio.
Post by Martin .
Are there good reverb solutions to achieve this with mono recordings -
or to enhance ambisonic recordings? Do you use conventional DAWs or
also game engines like UE4 and Unity?
It depends: do you just want to author audio, or do you want it to track
within a game? Ambisonic uniquely goes for both, equally, so again game
people will be over-represented among the doers. But quite certainly if
you just want to produce a static soundscape, using a game engine would
be overkill.
As for reverb in production, especially including distance from a source
and its movement over time, that side of the picture hasn't really been
set in stone anywhere.
Early work was content to just pan the direct sound, and maybe put in
some Schroeder kinda artificial reverb into the W channel. As for
distance, panning between W and XYZ was used as a quick and dirty fix.
What you really want to do instead is much more complicated. First,
you'll want to maximally decorrelate the reverb over the channels, so
that you'll end up with proper envelopment. For a synthetically panned
source that calls for four mutually decorrelated reverb lines, running
from the source to WXYZ (and more, if going to an higher order). You'd
want to add early slap echoes from walls and other obstacles, just as
you do in stereo reverb modelling, only now panned to come from all
around. If your sound source is moving, you'd want to model Doppler
effects with a delay line, and perhaps even go as far as to model
Doppler in the strongest early echoes as well. Then if you *really*
wanted to go hyperrealistic, you'd want to model near field effects at
least for any close sources and/or echoes.
No current software does all of that, be it DAW or game like. As is
usually the case, we bump into the fact that even plain old ambisonic,
despite its age, remains hitech which is under development. Its full
potential has yet to be unleashed, so that if you aim at the limit,
you'll still often have to roll your own.
--
+358-40-3255353 <http://decoy.iki.fi/front+358-40-3255353>, 025E D175
ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Axel Drioli
Immersive Audio Designer, Editor and Mixer / Music recording and mixing
engineer
+44 7460 223640
-
Skype
axel.drioli
Concept Creator
// Spatial Audio Producer, Designer and Mixer
of
Eridanus, the 3D Audio Movie.
www.facebook.com/eridanus3dsound
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