Discussion:
Multichannel players for permanent installations
(too old to reply)
Augustine Leudar
2017-06-27 11:52:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi,
I know I've asked this before but maybe there's some new developments. HAs
anyone any suggestions for anything up to a permanent 22 channel
installation (could be two devices started at the same time and set to
loop) . The best suggestion Ive had I think is one of those old hard disk
recorders for use with mixing desks ? Any other suggestions ? Ive been the
computer with multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id
like to repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof,
cheers,
Gus
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Steven Boardman
2017-06-27 12:27:16 UTC
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Raw Message
These seem to be cutting your mustard..

https://cymaticaudio.com/products/recorders-players/utrack-24

Steve

On 27 Jun 2017 12:52, "Augustine Leudar" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,
I know I've asked this before but maybe there's some new developments. HAs
anyone any suggestions for anything up to a permanent 22 channel
installation (could be two devices started at the same time and set to
loop) . The best suggestion Ive had I think is one of those old hard disk
recorders for use with mixing desks ? Any other suggestions ? Ive been the
computer with multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id
like to repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof,
cheers,
Gus
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Wim
2017-06-27 12:32:11 UTC
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Raw Message
Hi Augustine,


The Cymatic LP16 has 16 outputs and I believe it can be synced to a second
one. If not, there's the 24 channel Utrack 24 that's also a recorder:

https://www.thomann.de/nl/cymatic_audio_live_player_lp_16.htm

https://www.thomann.de/nl/cymatic_utrack24.htm

Both are fairly affordable.

There are several others if you care to buy in China.


Cheers,

Wim
Post by Augustine Leudar
Hi,
I know I've asked this before but maybe there's some new developments. HAs
anyone any suggestions for anything up to a permanent 22 channel
installation (could be two devices started at the same time and set to
loop) . The best suggestion Ive had I think is one of those old hard disk
recorders for use with mixing desks ? Any other suggestions ? Ive been the
computer with multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id
like to repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof,
cheers,
Gus
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David Pickett
2017-06-27 12:53:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Augustine Leudar
Hi,
I know I've asked this before but maybe there's some new developments. HAs
anyone any suggestions for anything up to a permanent 22 channel
installation (could be two devices started at the same time and set to
loop) . The best suggestion Ive had I think is one of those old hard disk
recorders for use with mixing desks ? Any other suggestions ? Ive been the
computer with multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id
like to repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof,
A second hand Alesis HD24, if you are on a low budget. They are bomb-proof.

David
Jörn Nettingsmeier
2017-06-27 17:12:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Pickett
Post by Augustine Leudar
Hi,
I know I've asked this before but maybe there's some new developments.
HAs
Post by Augustine Leudar
anyone any suggestions for anything up to a permanent 22 channel
installation (could be two devices started at the same time and set to
loop) . The best suggestion Ive had I think is one of those old hard disk
recorders for use with mixing desks ? Any other suggestions ? Ive been
the
Post by Augustine Leudar
computer with multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id
like to repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof,
A second hand Alesis HD24, if you are on a low budget. They are bomb-proof.
Iff you can get the appropriate disks, which seem to be fetching
collector's prices these days :-D

There is also this:
https://joeco.co.uk/multi-track-audio-players-products-live-install-joeco/

Played with it at a trade show, my impression was a very good one. Not
cheap though.
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
De Rijpgracht 8, 1055VR Amsterdam, Nederland
Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio), Tonmeister VDT
http://stackingdwarves.net
David Pickett
2017-06-27 18:08:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 06/27/2017 02:53 PM, David Pickett wrote: >
At 13:52 27/06/2017, Augustine Leudar
wrote: > >Hi, > >I know I've asked this before
but maybe there's some new developments. >
HAs > >anyone any suggestions for anything up
to a permanent 22 channel > >installation
(could be two devices started at the same time
and set to > >loop) . The best suggestion Ive
had I think is one of those old hard
disk > >recorders for use with mixing desks ?
Any other suggestions ? Ive been >
the > >computer with multchannel soundcard
route and it is not an experience Id > >like to
repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult
proof, > > A second hand Alesis HD24, if you are
on a low budget. They are > bomb-proof. Iff you
can get the appropriate disks, which seem to be
fetching collector's prices these days :-D
I am still using mine (as a backup, connected
with ADAT I/O) with the old parallel disks, but
members of the Yahoo HD24 group have successfully
converted machines to run with modern SATA
disks. Unlike the USB stick, nobody is likely to nick the HD!

As to not having a guarantee, the system is so
simple that once it works it seems to go for
ever. However, as a consequence of this, I see
that prices are holding steady on Ebay at c. 500 quid.

David
Charlie Richmond
2017-06-27 18:18:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/virtual-sound-system.html
On 06/27/2017 02:53 PM, David Pickett wrote: > At 13:52 27/06/2017,
Augustine Leudar wrote: > >Hi, > >I know I've asked this before but maybe
there's some new developments. > HAs > >anyone any suggestions for
anything up to a permanent 22 channel > >installation (could be two
devices started at the same time and set to > >loop) . The best suggestion
Ive had I think is one of those old hard disk > >recorders for use with
mixing desks ? Any other suggestions ? Ive been > the > >computer with
multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id > >like to
repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof, > > A second hand Alesis
HD24, if you are on a low budget. They are > bomb-proof. Iff you can get
the appropriate disks, which seem to be fetching collector's prices these
days :-D
I am still using mine (as a backup, connected with ADAT I/O) with the old
parallel disks, but members of the Yahoo HD24 group have successfully
converted machines to run with modern SATA disks. Unlike the USB stick,
nobody is likely to nick the HD!
As to not having a guarantee, the system is so simple that once it works
it seems to go for ever. However, as a consequence of this, I see that
prices are holding steady on Ebay at c. 500 quid.
David
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
* Charlie Richmond - http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com
<http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
* Viber: +16047159441 Skype, LinkedIn & Twitter: charlierichmond
* facebook: charlie.richmond
* facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
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* google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
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Charlie Richmond
2017-06-27 18:21:59 UTC
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Raw Message
Over 1.5 million virtual channels in permanent installations now:

http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/news.html#pu
Post by Charlie Richmond
http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/virtual-sound-system.html
On 06/27/2017 02:53 PM, David Pickett wrote: > At 13:52 27/06/2017,
Augustine Leudar wrote: > >Hi, > >I know I've asked this before but maybe
there's some new developments. > HAs > >anyone any suggestions for
anything up to a permanent 22 channel > >installation (could be two
devices started at the same time and set to > >loop) . The best suggestion
Ive had I think is one of those old hard disk > >recorders for use with
mixing desks ? Any other suggestions ? Ive been > the > >computer with
multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id > >like to
repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof, > > A second hand Alesis
HD24, if you are on a low budget. They are > bomb-proof. Iff you can get
the appropriate disks, which seem to be fetching collector's prices these
days :-D
I am still using mine (as a backup, connected with ADAT I/O) with the old
parallel disks, but members of the Yahoo HD24 group have successfully
converted machines to run with modern SATA disks. Unlike the USB stick,
nobody is likely to nick the HD!
As to not having a guarantee, the system is so simple that once it works
it seems to go for ever. However, as a consequence of this, I see that
prices are holding steady on Ebay at c. 500 quid.
David
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
* Charlie Richmond - http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com
<http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
charlierichmond
* facebook: charlie.richmond
* facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832>
* google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
--
* Charlie Richmond - http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com
<http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
* Viber: +16047159441 Skype, LinkedIn & Twitter: charlierichmond
* facebook: charlie.richmond
* facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832>
* google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
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Augustine Leudar
2017-06-27 18:31:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi Charlie - I was hoping you would chime in - my internets a bit
weird at the moment so I cant really see your page properly (I can
only see software?) What hardware have you got that will do up to 22
channels and whats the price ?
cheers,
Gus
Post by Charlie Richmond
http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/news.html#pu
Post by Charlie Richmond
http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/virtual-sound-system.html
On 06/27/2017 02:53 PM, David Pickett wrote: > At 13:52 27/06/2017,
Augustine Leudar wrote: > >Hi, > >I know I've asked this before but maybe
there's some new developments. > HAs > >anyone any suggestions for
anything up to a permanent 22 channel > >installation (could be two
devices started at the same time and set to > >loop) . The best suggestion
Ive had I think is one of those old hard disk > >recorders for use with
mixing desks ? Any other suggestions ? Ive been > the > >computer with
multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id > >like to
repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof, > > A second hand Alesis
HD24, if you are on a low budget. They are > bomb-proof. Iff you can get
the appropriate disks, which seem to be fetching collector's prices these
days :-D
I am still using mine (as a backup, connected with ADAT I/O) with the old
parallel disks, but members of the Yahoo HD24 group have successfully
converted machines to run with modern SATA disks. Unlike the USB stick,
nobody is likely to nick the HD!
As to not having a guarantee, the system is so simple that once it works
it seems to go for ever. However, as a consequence of this, I see that
prices are holding steady on Ebay at c. 500 quid.
David
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
* Charlie Richmond - http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com
<http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
charlierichmond
* facebook: charlie.richmond
* facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832>
* google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
--
* Charlie Richmond - http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com
<http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
* Viber: +16047159441 Skype, LinkedIn & Twitter: charlierichmond
* facebook: charlie.richmond
* facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832>
* google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
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_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit
account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
Charlie Richmond
2017-06-28 11:47:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Since Gus seems determined not to use the most logical solution (certainly
the one that is by far the most frequently used, anyway...) here is my
private reply to him, if anyone is interested:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Charlie Richmond <***@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations
To: Augustine Leudar <***@gmail.com>


Hi Gus! The short answer is that you can use literally any combination of
ASIO driver based audio interfaces you want combined to provide as many
channels as you want. SM-S aggregates them as long as they can be set to
the same buffer size, which most can be. I hope it's not my site that's
the problem because I do list a number of interfaces which we distribute
but they tend to be unusual ones and rather expensive so it's important to
know that you can use any ones you want with a garden variety Windows
computer to put it all together!

The price list is here: http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/prices.html

And clicking on the links at the top should get you anywhere you want but
if it isn't working please let me know and I can provide any more
information you need. Also, I am always able to provide you with temporary
evaluation licenses by email for any size and configuration system that you
are interested in!

All the best as always,
Charlie

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 11:31 AM, Augustine Leudar <
Post by Augustine Leudar
Hi Charlie - I was hoping you would chime in - my internets a bit
weird at the moment so I cant really see your page properly (I can
only see software?) What hardware have you got that will do up to 22
channels and whats the price ?
cheers,
Gus
Post by Charlie Richmond
http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/news.html#pu
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 11:18 AM, Charlie Richmond <
Post by Charlie Richmond
http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/virtual-sound-system.html
On 06/27/2017 02:53 PM, David Pickett wrote: > At 13:52 27/06/2017,
Augustine Leudar wrote: > >Hi, > >I know I've asked this before but maybe
there's some new developments. > HAs > >anyone any suggestions for
anything up to a permanent 22 channel > >installation (could be two
devices started at the same time and set to > >loop) . The best suggestion
Ive had I think is one of those old hard disk > >recorders for use
with
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
mixing desks ? Any other suggestions ? Ive been > the > >computer
with
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id > >like to
repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof, > > A second hand
Alesis
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
HD24, if you are on a low budget. They are > bomb-proof. Iff you can get
the appropriate disks, which seem to be fetching collector's prices these
days :-D
I am still using mine (as a backup, connected with ADAT I/O) with the
old
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
parallel disks, but members of the Yahoo HD24 group have successfully
converted machines to run with modern SATA disks. Unlike the USB
stick,
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
nobody is likely to nick the HD!
As to not having a guarantee, the system is so simple that once it
works
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
it seems to go for ever. However, as a consequence of this, I see that
prices are holding steady on Ebay at c. 500 quid.
David
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
here,
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
* Charlie Richmond - http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com
<http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
charlierichmond
* facebook: charlie.richmond
* facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832>
* google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
--
* Charlie Richmond - http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com
<http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
* Viber: +16047159441 Skype, LinkedIn & Twitter: charlierichmond
* facebook: charlie.richmond
* facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832>
* google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
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_______________________________________________
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edit
Post by Charlie Richmond
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--
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
* Charlie Richmond - http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com
<http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
* Viber: +16047159441 <(604)%20715-9441> Skype, LinkedIn & Twitter:
charlierichmond
* facebook: charlie.richmond
* facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832>
* google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
--
* Charlie Richmond - http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com
<http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
* Viber: +16047159441 Skype, LinkedIn & Twitter: charlierichmond
* facebook: charlie.richmond
* facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832>
* google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
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Augustine Leudar
2017-06-28 11:54:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Haven't had a chance to read that myself yet Charlie - cant seem to
login....
Post by Charlie Richmond
Since Gus seems determined not to use the most logical solution (certainly
the one that is by far the most frequently used, anyway...) here is my
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations
Hi Gus! The short answer is that you can use literally any combination of
ASIO driver based audio interfaces you want combined to provide as many
channels as you want. SM-S aggregates them as long as they can be set to
the same buffer size, which most can be. I hope it's not my site that's
the problem because I do list a number of interfaces which we distribute
but they tend to be unusual ones and rather expensive so it's important to
know that you can use any ones you want with a garden variety Windows
computer to put it all together!
The price list is here: http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/prices.html
And clicking on the links at the top should get you anywhere you want but
if it isn't working please let me know and I can provide any more
information you need. Also, I am always able to provide you with temporary
evaluation licenses by email for any size and configuration system that you
are interested in!
All the best as always,
Charlie
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 11:31 AM, Augustine Leudar <
Post by Augustine Leudar
Hi Charlie - I was hoping you would chime in - my internets a bit
weird at the moment so I cant really see your page properly (I can
only see software?) What hardware have you got that will do up to 22
channels and whats the price ?
cheers,
Gus
Post by Charlie Richmond
http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/news.html#pu
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 11:18 AM, Charlie Richmond <
Post by Charlie Richmond
http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/virtual-sound-system.html
On 06/27/2017 02:53 PM, David Pickett wrote: > At 13:52 27/06/2017,
Augustine Leudar wrote: > >Hi, > >I know I've asked this before
but
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
maybe
there's some new developments. > HAs > >anyone any suggestions for
anything up to a permanent 22 channel > >installation (could be two
devices started at the same time and set to > >loop) . The best suggestion
Ive had I think is one of those old hard disk > >recorders for use
with
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
mixing desks ? Any other suggestions ? Ive been > the > >computer
with
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id > >like
to
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof, > > A second hand
Alesis
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
HD24, if you are on a low budget. They are > bomb-proof. Iff you
can
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
get
the appropriate disks, which seem to be fetching collector's prices these
days :-D
I am still using mine (as a backup, connected with ADAT I/O) with the
old
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
parallel disks, but members of the Yahoo HD24 group have successfully
converted machines to run with modern SATA disks. Unlike the USB
stick,
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
nobody is likely to nick the HD!
As to not having a guarantee, the system is so simple that once it
works
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
it seems to go for ever. However, as a consequence of this, I see
that
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
prices are holding steady on Ebay at c. 500 quid.
David
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
here,
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
* Charlie Richmond - http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com
<http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
charlierichmond
* facebook: charlie.richmond
* facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-
Ltd/130195960832>
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
* google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
--
* Charlie Richmond - http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com
<http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
* Viber: +16047159441 Skype, LinkedIn & Twitter: charlierichmond
* facebook: charlie.richmond
* facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
* google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
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_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
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Post by Augustine Leudar
edit
Post by Charlie Richmond
account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
* Charlie Richmond - http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com
<http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
charlierichmond
* facebook: charlie.richmond
* facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832>
* google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
--
* Charlie Richmond - http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com
<http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
* Viber: +16047159441 Skype, LinkedIn & Twitter: charlierichmond
* facebook: charlie.richmond
* facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832>
* google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
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Augustine Leudar
2017-06-28 11:57:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Like I say - have had thre einstallations going wrong because staff kept
jogging usb cables and restarting machines accidentally - this is not a
logical choice for me to make again and no longer a route I want to go down
- I am sure others have had better luck with Pcs....
Post by Charlie Richmond
Since Gus seems determined not to use the most logical solution (certainly
the one that is by far the most frequently used, anyway...) here is my
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations
Hi Gus! The short answer is that you can use literally any combination of
ASIO driver based audio interfaces you want combined to provide as many
channels as you want. SM-S aggregates them as long as they can be set to
the same buffer size, which most can be. I hope it's not my site that's
the problem because I do list a number of interfaces which we distribute
but they tend to be unusual ones and rather expensive so it's important to
know that you can use any ones you want with a garden variety Windows
computer to put it all together!
The price list is here: http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/prices.html
And clicking on the links at the top should get you anywhere you want but
if it isn't working please let me know and I can provide any more
information you need. Also, I am always able to provide you with temporary
evaluation licenses by email for any size and configuration system that you
are interested in!
All the best as always,
Charlie
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 11:31 AM, Augustine Leudar <
Post by Augustine Leudar
Hi Charlie - I was hoping you would chime in - my internets a bit
weird at the moment so I cant really see your page properly (I can
only see software?) What hardware have you got that will do up to 22
channels and whats the price ?
cheers,
Gus
Post by Charlie Richmond
http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/news.html#pu
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 11:18 AM, Charlie Richmond <
Post by Charlie Richmond
http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/virtual-sound-system.html
On 06/27/2017 02:53 PM, David Pickett wrote: > At 13:52 27/06/2017,
Augustine Leudar wrote: > >Hi, > >I know I've asked this before
but
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
maybe
there's some new developments. > HAs > >anyone any suggestions for
anything up to a permanent 22 channel > >installation (could be two
devices started at the same time and set to > >loop) . The best suggestion
Ive had I think is one of those old hard disk > >recorders for use
with
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
mixing desks ? Any other suggestions ? Ive been > the > >computer
with
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id > >like
to
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof, > > A second hand
Alesis
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
HD24, if you are on a low budget. They are > bomb-proof. Iff you
can
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
get
the appropriate disks, which seem to be fetching collector's prices these
days :-D
I am still using mine (as a backup, connected with ADAT I/O) with the
old
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
parallel disks, but members of the Yahoo HD24 group have successfully
converted machines to run with modern SATA disks. Unlike the USB
stick,
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
nobody is likely to nick the HD!
As to not having a guarantee, the system is so simple that once it
works
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
it seems to go for ever. However, as a consequence of this, I see
that
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
prices are holding steady on Ebay at c. 500 quid.
David
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<http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
charlierichmond
* facebook: charlie.richmond
* facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-
Ltd/130195960832>
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Charlie Richmond
Post by Charlie Richmond
* google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
--
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<http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
* Viber: +16047159441 Skype, LinkedIn & Twitter: charlierichmond
* facebook: charlie.richmond
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charlierichmond
* facebook: charlie.richmond
* facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832>
* google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
--
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<http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
* Viber: +16047159441 Skype, LinkedIn & Twitter: charlierichmond
* facebook: charlie.richmond
* facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832>
* google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
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Marc Lavallée
2017-06-27 13:42:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 12:52:41 +0100
Ive been the computer with multchannel soundcard route and it is not
an experience Id like to repeat.
What were the problems you experienced?

--
Marc
Augustine Leudar
2017-06-27 15:30:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
This Cymatic thing looks promising - so it works as as standalone ?
What storage medium does it use ?
Marc - the main problem was the USB cable getting jogged loose despite
being well out of harms way (or so I thought), cleaners unplugging the
computer to hoover and then different drivers not being found and
finally the two motu ultralites making very loud weird clicking noises
(not buffer related) after a few weeks. There were other issues but Id
rather keep things in one box rather than having to automate, tweak
and control an operating system and remove loads of unessassry
background processes (even linux).
Post by Marc Lavallée
On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 12:52:41 +0100
Ive been the computer with multchannel soundcard route and it is not
an experience Id like to repeat.
What were the problems you experienced?
--
Marc
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Wim
2017-06-27 15:35:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi Augustine,

It uses anything that's USB2 compatible. Stick, harddisk, MP3 player (if
the MP3 player has a disk-like operating mode)...

It's also a USB audio interface.

And there's a recorder counterpart, the LR16. No preamps, so it is very
affordable.


Cheers,

Wim
Post by Augustine Leudar
This Cymatic thing looks promising - so it works as as standalone ?
What storage medium does it use ?
Marc - the main problem was the USB cable getting jogged loose despite
being well out of harms way (or so I thought), cleaners unplugging the
computer to hoover and then different drivers not being found and
finally the two motu ultralites making very loud weird clicking noises
(not buffer related) after a few weeks. There were other issues but Id
rather keep things in one box rather than having to automate, tweak
and control an operating system and remove loads of unessassry
background processes (even linux).
Post by Marc Lavallée
On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 12:52:41 +0100
Ive been the computer with multchannel soundcard route and it is not
an experience Id like to repeat.
What were the problems you experienced?
--
Marc
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Augustine Leudar
2017-06-27 15:45:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hmmm that's already making me nervous... I can see it now Staff member :
"has anyone got a USB stick I can borrow ?" "Just use that one in that
weird box thing behind the counter" etc etc maybe I'm being over the top
but you wouldn't believe what people get up to....shame it doesn't have an
SD card slot. Still the best option so far and at least it would have a
guarantee - the alesis looks good but second hand means no guarantee.
Post by Wim
Hi Augustine,
It uses anything that's USB2 compatible. Stick, harddisk, MP3 player (if
the MP3 player has a disk-like operating mode)...
It's also a USB audio interface.
And there's a recorder counterpart, the LR16. No preamps, so it is very
affordable.
Cheers,
Wim
Post by Augustine Leudar
This Cymatic thing looks promising - so it works as as standalone ?
What storage medium does it use ?
Marc - the main problem was the USB cable getting jogged loose despite
being well out of harms way (or so I thought), cleaners unplugging the
computer to hoover and then different drivers not being found and
finally the two motu ultralites making very loud weird clicking noises
(not buffer related) after a few weeks. There were other issues but Id
rather keep things in one box rather than having to automate, tweak
and control an operating system and remove loads of unessassry
background processes (even linux).
Post by Marc Lavallée
On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 12:52:41 +0100
Ive been the computer with multchannel soundcard route and it is not
an experience Id like to repeat.
What were the problems you experienced?
--
Marc
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Post by Augustine Leudar
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Post by Marc Lavallée
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Marc Lavallée
2017-06-27 18:06:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I see... But a standalone player is nothing else than a dedicated
computer, configured for the task of playing multi-channel audio. A
pre-configured PC can be configured to be idiot-proof with much more
options (EQ, etc) at the expense of more effort (I agree). The Cymatic
unit looks nice, but we can read on the product page: "The uTrack24
records directly onto USB media plugged into the front panel,...". So
unless the unit and the USB media are itself enclosed or secured,
there's a risk that something goes wrong. Also, does it have an
auto-play feature (in case of a power reset)? Or an auto-loop feature?
The uTrack24 is designed for a specific target audience and a few use
cases. Because there's no free lunch, and many possible specific
scenarios, I would still favor a computer based solution.
--
Marc

Le Tue, 27 Jun 2017 16:30:09 +0100
Post by Augustine Leudar
This Cymatic thing looks promising - so it works as as standalone ?
What storage medium does it use ?
Marc - the main problem was the USB cable getting jogged loose despite
being well out of harms way (or so I thought), cleaners unplugging the
computer to hoover and then different drivers not being found and
finally the two motu ultralites making very loud weird clicking noises
(not buffer related) after a few weeks. There were other issues but Id
rather keep things in one box rather than having to automate, tweak
and control an operating system and remove loads of unessassry
background processes (even linux).
Post by Marc Lavallée
On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 12:52:41 +0100
Ive been the computer with multchannel soundcard route and it is
not an experience Id like to repeat.
What were the problems you experienced?
--
Marc
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Jörn Nettingsmeier
2017-06-27 17:14:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 06/27/2017 01:52 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:> Ive been the> computer
with multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id> like to
repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof,
Can I ask what went wrong?
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
De Rijpgracht 8, 1055VR Amsterdam, Nederland
Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio), Tonmeister VDT
http://stackingdwarves.net
Augustine Leudar
2017-06-27 17:52:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
see my post before last for what went wrong. How much are the Joecos ?
Post by Jörn Nettingsmeier
On 06/27/2017 01:52 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:> Ive been the> computer
with multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id> like to
repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof,
Can I ask what went wrong?
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
De Rijpgracht 8, 1055VR Amsterdam, Nederland
Tel. +49 177 7937487
Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio), Tonmeister VDT
http://stackingdwarves.net
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit
account or options, view archives and so on.
--
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
Jörn Nettingsmeier
2017-06-28 17:00:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Augustine Leudar
see my post before last for what went wrong. How much are the Joecos ?
https://www.thomann.de/gb/joeco_bbr64_dante_blackbox_recorder.htm

However, if you go the Dante route, you might as well use an old Minimac
with a virtual soundcard (if 32 ch out is enough) and an appropriate
Dante converter. Should be cheaper, if you have the Mac lying around,
and no less robust if the hardware is otherwise ok.
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
De Rijpgracht 8, 1055VR Amsterdam, Nederland
Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio), Tonmeister VDT
http://stackingdwarves.net
Guillaume Le Nost
2017-06-28 17:39:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Aside from dante, AVB is another option for multichannel audio over ethernet.
It is now available as standard (and for free) in any Mac running a recent os, and several options for avb enabled amplifiers are available: biamp, crown, l-acoustics to list a few.
If converters are required, the Motu AVB series can help, and is relatively inexpensive.

Guillaume
Post by Jörn Nettingsmeier
Post by Augustine Leudar
see my post before last for what went wrong. How much are the Joecos ?
https://www.thomann.de/gb/joeco_bbr64_dante_blackbox_recorder.htm
However, if you go the Dante route, you might as well use an old Minimac with a virtual soundcard (if 32 ch out is enough) and an appropriate Dante converter. Should be cheaper, if you have the Mac lying around, and no less robust if the hardware is otherwise ok.
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
De Rijpgracht 8, 1055VR Amsterdam, Nederland
Tel. +49 177 7937487
Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio), Tonmeister VDT
http://stackingdwarves.net
_______________________________________________
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Richard Foss
2017-06-28 18:55:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Yes, I agree with Guillaume - AVB is a good option. miniDSP sell an 8
channel box AVB box, the N-DAC8, for $299.

With three of these you have 24 channels, and they all run off the same
network clock. You would also need a small (4/5 port) switch.

A more expensive, but also easily configurable option is their SPK-4P
Power over Ethernet option ($395). For 22 channels, you would then have
22 speakers connected to a 24 port switch. Power, audio, and control
then all travel over one cable, which makes for easy configuration.
Again, all speakers are synced to the same network master.

Richard.
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
Aside from dante, AVB is another option for multichannel audio over ethernet.
It is now available as standard (and for free) in any Mac running a recent os, and several options for avb enabled amplifiers are available: biamp, crown, l-acoustics to list a few.
If converters are required, the Motu AVB series can help, and is relatively inexpensive.
Guillaume
Post by Jörn Nettingsmeier
Post by Augustine Leudar
see my post before last for what went wrong. How much are the Joecos ?
https://www.thomann.de/gb/joeco_bbr64_dante_blackbox_recorder.htm
However, if you go the Dante route, you might as well use an old Minimac with a virtual soundcard (if 32 ch out is enough) and an appropriate Dante converter. Should be cheaper, if you have the Mac lying around, and no less robust if the hardware is otherwise ok.
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
De Rijpgracht 8, 1055VR Amsterdam, Nederland
Tel. +49 177 7937487
Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio), Tonmeister VDT
http://stackingdwarves.net
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
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Computer Science Department
Rhodes University
Grahamstown 6140
South Africa

Tel: +27 46 6038294
Cell: +27 83 288 9354
email: ***@ru.ac.za
Augustine Leudar
2017-06-28 19:11:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi Richard and Guillaume,
Interesting stuff. Two things to note - the installation is in a tropical
botanic garden so I am using a certain type of speaker that is pretty
resilient (used in saunas etc) whci is passive (for obvious reasons) and
connected by speaker cable . The AVB amps sound interesting - any links to
the highest channel count ones ? I am not quite sure what advantage 4 * N-DAC8
($1200) + computer ($ ???) would get me over one Utrack 24 or even a Joeco
other than the fact its connects via ethernet rather than USB , bearing in
mind that the speaker will be connected analogue via a a couple of
multichannel amplifiers.....
Post by Richard Foss
Yes, I agree with Guillaume - AVB is a good option. miniDSP sell an 8
channel box AVB box, the N-DAC8, for $299.
With three of these you have 24 channels, and they all run off the same
network clock. You would also need a small (4/5 port) switch.
A more expensive, but also easily configurable option is their SPK-4P
Power over Ethernet option ($395). For 22 channels, you would then have 22
speakers connected to a 24 port switch. Power, audio, and control then all
travel over one cable, which makes for easy configuration. Again, all
speakers are synced to the same network master.
Richard.
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
Aside from dante, AVB is another option for multichannel audio over ethernet.
It is now available as standard (and for free) in any Mac running a
biamp, crown, l-acoustics to list a few.
If converters are required, the Motu AVB series can help, and is relatively inexpensive.
Guillaume
On 28 Jun 2017, at 18:00, Jörn Nettingsmeier <
Post by Jörn Nettingsmeier
Post by Augustine Leudar
see my post before last for what went wrong. How much are the Joecos ?
https://www.thomann.de/gb/joeco_bbr64_dante_blackbox_recorder.htm
However, if you go the Dante route, you might as well use an old Minimac
with a virtual soundcard (if 32 ch out is enough) and an appropriate Dante
converter. Should be cheaper, if you have the Mac lying around, and no less
robust if the hardware is otherwise ok.
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
De Rijpgracht 8, 1055VR Amsterdam, Nederland
Tel. +49 177 7937487
Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio), Tonmeister VDT
http://stackingdwarves.net
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Professor Richard Foss
Computer Science Department
Rhodes University
Grahamstown 6140
South Africa
Tel: +27 46 6038294
Cell: +27 83 288 9354
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Richard Foss
2017-06-28 20:16:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi Augustine, this sounds like an interesting application. I was
recently at the Buddhist rhythm garden in Hong Kong and experienced a
multi-speaker system within the garden - it was very effective. The
UTrack24 looks great, and affordable. Do you control the internal DSP
mixer to have sounds moving across speakers or would this be pre-mixed
into the channels you send? I have been using mixer matrices within the
N-DAC8s and SPK-4Ps to provide immersive effects. The nice thing here is
that you have a standard protocol to enable this. To use the N-DAC8s for
your application you would indeed need to have 3 x N-DAC8s ($900) and a
computer.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Hi Richard and Guillaume,
Interesting stuff. Two things to note - the installation is in a tropical
botanic garden so I am using a certain type of speaker that is pretty
resilient (used in saunas etc) whci is passive (for obvious reasons) and
connected by speaker cable . The AVB amps sound interesting - any links to
the highest channel count ones ? I am not quite sure what advantage 4 * N-DAC8
($1200) + computer ($ ???) would get me over one Utrack 24 or even a Joeco
other than the fact its connects via ethernet rather than USB , bearing in
mind that the speaker will be connected analogue via a a couple of
multichannel amplifiers.....
Post by Richard Foss
Yes, I agree with Guillaume - AVB is a good option. miniDSP sell an 8
channel box AVB box, the N-DAC8, for $299.
With three of these you have 24 channels, and they all run off the same
network clock. You would also need a small (4/5 port) switch.
A more expensive, but also easily configurable option is their SPK-4P
Power over Ethernet option ($395). For 22 channels, you would then have 22
speakers connected to a 24 port switch. Power, audio, and control then all
travel over one cable, which makes for easy configuration. Again, all
speakers are synced to the same network master.
Richard.
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
Aside from dante, AVB is another option for multichannel audio over ethernet.
It is now available as standard (and for free) in any Mac running a
biamp, crown, l-acoustics to list a few.
If converters are required, the Motu AVB series can help, and is
relatively inexpensive.
Guillaume
On 28 Jun 2017, at 18:00, Jörn Nettingsmeier <
Post by Jörn Nettingsmeier
Post by Augustine Leudar
see my post before last for what went wrong. How much are the Joecos ?
https://www.thomann.de/gb/joeco_bbr64_dante_blackbox_recorder.htm
However, if you go the Dante route, you might as well use an old Minimac
with a virtual soundcard (if 32 ch out is enough) and an appropriate Dante
converter. Should be cheaper, if you have the Mac lying around, and no less
robust if the hardware is otherwise ok.
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
De Rijpgracht 8, 1055VR Amsterdam, Nederland
Tel. +49 177 7937487
Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio), Tonmeister VDT
http://stackingdwarves.net
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Professor Richard Foss
Computer Science Department
Rhodes University
Grahamstown 6140
South Africa
Tel: +27 46 6038294
Cell: +27 83 288 9354
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Professor Richard Foss
Computer Science Department
Rhodes University
Grahamstown 6140
South Africa

Tel: +27 46 6038294
Cell: +27 83 288 9354
email: ***@ru.ac.za
Augustine Leudar
2017-06-28 21:06:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the soundscape is
designed in pre production for this installation and then its just a
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I do are
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime around the
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing might be
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like the way
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet cable.....
Hi Augustine, this sounds like an interesting application. I was recently
at the Buddhist rhythm garden in Hong Kong and experienced a multi-speaker
system within the garden - it was very effective. The UTrack24 looks great,
and affordable. Do you control the internal DSP mixer to have sounds moving
across speakers or would this be pre-mixed into the channels you send? I
have been using mixer matrices within the N-DAC8s and SPK-4Ps to provide
immersive effects. The nice thing here is that you have a standard protocol
to enable this. To use the N-DAC8s for your application you would indeed
need to have 3 x N-DAC8s ($900) and a computer.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Hi Richard and Guillaume,
Interesting stuff. Two things to note - the installation is in a tropical
botanic garden so I am using a certain type of speaker that is pretty
resilient (used in saunas etc) whci is passive (for obvious reasons) and
connected by speaker cable . The AVB amps sound interesting - any links to
the highest channel count ones ? I am not quite sure what advantage 4 * N-DAC8
($1200) + computer ($ ???) would get me over one Utrack 24 or even a Joeco
other than the fact its connects via ethernet rather than USB , bearing in
mind that the speaker will be connected analogue via a a couple of
multichannel amplifiers.....
Yes, I agree with Guillaume - AVB is a good option. miniDSP sell an 8
Post by Richard Foss
channel box AVB box, the N-DAC8, for $299.
With three of these you have 24 channels, and they all run off the same
network clock. You would also need a small (4/5 port) switch.
A more expensive, but also easily configurable option is their SPK-4P
Power over Ethernet option ($395). For 22 channels, you would then have 22
speakers connected to a 24 port switch. Power, audio, and control then all
travel over one cable, which makes for easy configuration. Again, all
speakers are synced to the same network master.
Richard.
Aside from dante, AVB is another option for multichannel audio over
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
ethernet.
It is now available as standard (and for free) in any Mac running a
biamp, crown, l-acoustics to list a few.
If converters are required, the Motu AVB series can help, and is
relatively inexpensive.
Guillaume
On 28 Jun 2017, at 18:00, Jörn Nettingsmeier <
Post by Jörn Nettingsmeier
Post by Augustine Leudar
see my post before last for what went wrong. How much are the Joecos ?
https://www.thomann.de/gb/joeco_bbr64_dante_blackbox_recorder.htm
However, if you go the Dante route, you might as well use an old Minimac
with a virtual soundcard (if 32 ch out is enough) and an appropriate Dante
converter. Should be cheaper, if you have the Mac lying around, and no less
robust if the hardware is otherwise ok.
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
De Rijpgracht 8, 1055VR Amsterdam, Nederland
Tel. +49 177 7937487
Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio), Tonmeister VDT
http://stackingdwarves.net
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Professor Richard Foss
Computer Science Department
Rhodes University
Grahamstown 6140
South Africa
Tel: +27 46 6038294
Cell: +27 83 288 9354
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Professor Richard Foss
Computer Science Department
Rhodes University
Grahamstown 6140
South Africa
Tel: +27 46 6038294
Cell: +27 83 288 9354
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Guillaume Le Nost
2017-06-28 21:17:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Here is a link to a 8x 175w avb amplifier:
https://www.biamp.com/tesira-amp-8175r

Guillaume
Post by Augustine Leudar
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the soundscape is
designed in pre production for this installation and then its just a
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I do are
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime around the
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing might be
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like the way
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet cable.....
Hi Augustine, this sounds like an interesting application. I was recently
at the Buddhist rhythm garden in Hong Kong and experienced a multi-speaker
system within the garden - it was very effective. The UTrack24 looks great,
and affordable. Do you control the internal DSP mixer to have sounds moving
across speakers or would this be pre-mixed into the channels you send? I
have been using mixer matrices within the N-DAC8s and SPK-4Ps to provide
immersive effects. The nice thing here is that you have a standard protocol
to enable this. To use the N-DAC8s for your application you would indeed
need to have 3 x N-DAC8s ($900) and a computer.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Hi Richard and Guillaume,
Interesting stuff. Two things to note - the installation is in a tropical
botanic garden so I am using a certain type of speaker that is pretty
resilient (used in saunas etc) whci is passive (for obvious reasons) and
connected by speaker cable . The AVB amps sound interesting - any links to
the highest channel count ones ? I am not quite sure what advantage 4 * N-DAC8
($1200) + computer ($ ???) would get me over one Utrack 24 or even a Joeco
other than the fact its connects via ethernet rather than USB , bearing in
mind that the speaker will be connected analogue via a a couple of
multichannel amplifiers.....
Yes, I agree with Guillaume - AVB is a good option. miniDSP sell an 8
Post by Richard Foss
channel box AVB box, the N-DAC8, for $299.
With three of these you have 24 channels, and they all run off the same
network clock. You would also need a small (4/5 port) switch.
A more expensive, but also easily configurable option is their SPK-4P
Power over Ethernet option ($395). For 22 channels, you would then have 22
speakers connected to a 24 port switch. Power, audio, and control then all
travel over one cable, which makes for easy configuration. Again, all
speakers are synced to the same network master.
Richard.
Aside from dante, AVB is another option for multichannel audio over
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
ethernet.
It is now available as standard (and for free) in any Mac running a
biamp, crown, l-acoustics to list a few.
If converters are required, the Motu AVB series can help, and is
relatively inexpensive.
Guillaume
On 28 Jun 2017, at 18:00, Jörn Nettingsmeier <
Post by Jörn Nettingsmeier
Post by Augustine Leudar
see my post before last for what went wrong. How much are the Joecos ?
https://www.thomann.de/gb/joeco_bbr64_dante_blackbox_recorder.htm
However, if you go the Dante route, you might as well use an old Minimac
with a virtual soundcard (if 32 ch out is enough) and an appropriate Dante
converter. Should be cheaper, if you have the Mac lying around, and no less
robust if the hardware is otherwise ok.
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
De Rijpgracht 8, 1055VR Amsterdam, Nederland
Tel. +49 177 7937487
Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio), Tonmeister VDT
http://stackingdwarves.net
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Professor Richard Foss
Computer Science Department
Rhodes University
Grahamstown 6140
South Africa
Tel: +27 46 6038294
Cell: +27 83 288 9354
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Professor Richard Foss
Computer Science Department
Rhodes University
Grahamstown 6140
South Africa
Tel: +27 46 6038294
Cell: +27 83 288 9354
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Augustine Leudar
2017-06-29 11:24:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Guillaume -Im assuming this has analogue as well as digital outputs for
each channel (I looked but couldnt find the specs)
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
https://www.biamp.com/tesira-amp-8175r
Guillaume
Post by Augustine Leudar
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the soundscape
is
Post by Augustine Leudar
designed in pre production for this installation and then its just a
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I do are
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime around the
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing might be
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like the way
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet cable.....
Post by Richard Foss
Hi Augustine, this sounds like an interesting application. I was
recently
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
at the Buddhist rhythm garden in Hong Kong and experienced a
multi-speaker
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
system within the garden - it was very effective. The UTrack24 looks
great,
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
and affordable. Do you control the internal DSP mixer to have sounds
moving
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
across speakers or would this be pre-mixed into the channels you send? I
have been using mixer matrices within the N-DAC8s and SPK-4Ps to provide
immersive effects. The nice thing here is that you have a standard
protocol
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
to enable this. To use the N-DAC8s for your application you would indeed
need to have 3 x N-DAC8s ($900) and a computer.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Hi Richard and Guillaume,
Interesting stuff. Two things to note - the installation is in a
tropical
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
botanic garden so I am using a certain type of speaker that is pretty
resilient (used in saunas etc) whci is passive (for obvious reasons)
and
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
connected by speaker cable . The AVB amps sound interesting - any
links to
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
the highest channel count ones ? I am not quite sure what advantage 4
*
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
N-DAC8
($1200) + computer ($ ???) would get me over one Utrack 24 or even a
Joeco
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
other than the fact its connects via ethernet rather than USB ,
bearing in
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
mind that the speaker will be connected analogue via a a couple of
multichannel amplifiers.....
Yes, I agree with Guillaume - AVB is a good option. miniDSP sell an 8
Post by Richard Foss
channel box AVB box, the N-DAC8, for $299.
With three of these you have 24 channels, and they all run off the
same
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
network clock. You would also need a small (4/5 port) switch.
A more expensive, but also easily configurable option is their SPK-4P
Power over Ethernet option ($395). For 22 channels, you would then
have
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
22
speakers connected to a 24 port switch. Power, audio, and control then all
travel over one cable, which makes for easy configuration. Again, all
speakers are synced to the same network master.
Richard.
Aside from dante, AVB is another option for multichannel audio over
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
ethernet.
It is now available as standard (and for free) in any Mac running a
recent os, and several options for avb enabled amplifiers are
biamp, crown, l-acoustics to list a few.
If converters are required, the Motu AVB series can help, and is
relatively inexpensive.
Guillaume
On 28 Jun 2017, at 18:00, Jörn Nettingsmeier <
Post by Jörn Nettingsmeier
Post by Augustine Leudar
see my post before last for what went wrong. How much are the
Joecos ?
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
Post by Jörn Nettingsmeier
Post by Augustine Leudar
https://www.thomann.de/gb/joeco_bbr64_dante_blackbox_recorder.htm
However, if you go the Dante route, you might as well use an old Minimac
with a virtual soundcard (if 32 ch out is enough) and an appropriate Dante
converter. Should be cheaper, if you have the Mac lying around, and
no
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
Post by Jörn Nettingsmeier
less
robust if the hardware is otherwise ok.
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
De Rijpgracht 8, 1055VR Amsterdam, Nederland
Tel. +49 177 7937487
Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio), Tonmeister VDT
http://stackingdwarves.net
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
here,
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Professor Richard Foss
Computer Science Department
Rhodes University
Grahamstown 6140
South Africa
Tel: +27 46 6038294
Cell: +27 83 288 9354
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
here,
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Professor Richard Foss
Computer Science Department
Rhodes University
Grahamstown 6140
South Africa
Tel: +27 46 6038294
Cell: +27 83 288 9354
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Post by Augustine Leudar
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_______________________________________________
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https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Guillaume Le Nost
2017-06-29 15:42:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Yes the Biamp Tesira Amp 8175r has 8 analogue inputs as well as 8 avb
inputs.
It has 8 analogue speaker outputs
cf. back of the device picture:
Loading Image...
Post by Augustine Leudar
Guillaume -Im assuming this has analogue as well as digital outputs for
each channel (I looked but couldnt find the specs)
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
https://www.biamp.com/tesira-amp-8175r
Guillaume
Post by Augustine Leudar
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the soundscape
is
Post by Augustine Leudar
designed in pre production for this installation and then its just a
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I do are
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime around
the
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
Post by Augustine Leudar
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing might
be
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
Post by Augustine Leudar
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like the way
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet cable.....
Post by Richard Foss
Hi Augustine, this sounds like an interesting application. I was
recently
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
at the Buddhist rhythm garden in Hong Kong and experienced a
multi-speaker
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
system within the garden - it was very effective. The UTrack24 looks
great,
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
and affordable. Do you control the internal DSP mixer to have sounds
moving
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
across speakers or would this be pre-mixed into the channels you
send? I
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
have been using mixer matrices within the N-DAC8s and SPK-4Ps to
provide
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
immersive effects. The nice thing here is that you have a standard
protocol
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
to enable this. To use the N-DAC8s for your application you would
indeed
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
need to have 3 x N-DAC8s ($900) and a computer.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Hi Richard and Guillaume,
Interesting stuff. Two things to note - the installation is in a
tropical
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
botanic garden so I am using a certain type of speaker that is pretty
resilient (used in saunas etc) whci is passive (for obvious reasons)
and
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
connected by speaker cable . The AVB amps sound interesting - any
links to
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
the highest channel count ones ? I am not quite sure what advantage
4
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
*
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
N-DAC8
($1200) + computer ($ ???) would get me over one Utrack 24 or even a
Joeco
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
other than the fact its connects via ethernet rather than USB ,
bearing in
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
mind that the speaker will be connected analogue via a a couple of
multichannel amplifiers.....
Yes, I agree with Guillaume - AVB is a good option. miniDSP sell an 8
Post by Richard Foss
channel box AVB box, the N-DAC8, for $299.
With three of these you have 24 channels, and they all run off the
same
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
network clock. You would also need a small (4/5 port) switch.
A more expensive, but also easily configurable option is their
SPK-4P
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Power over Ethernet option ($395). For 22 channels, you would then
have
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
22
speakers connected to a 24 port switch. Power, audio, and control
then
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
all
travel over one cable, which makes for easy configuration. Again,
all
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
speakers are synced to the same network master.
Richard.
Aside from dante, AVB is another option for multichannel audio over
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
ethernet.
It is now available as standard (and for free) in any Mac running a
recent os, and several options for avb enabled amplifiers are
biamp, crown, l-acoustics to list a few.
If converters are required, the Motu AVB series can help, and is
relatively inexpensive.
Guillaume
On 28 Jun 2017, at 18:00, Jörn Nettingsmeier <
Post by Jörn Nettingsmeier
Post by Augustine Leudar
see my post before last for what went wrong. How much are the
Joecos ?
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
Post by Jörn Nettingsmeier
Post by Augustine Leudar
https://www.thomann.de/gb/joeco_bbr64_dante_blackbox_
recorder.htm
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
Post by Jörn Nettingsmeier
However, if you go the Dante route, you might as well use an old Minimac
with a virtual soundcard (if 32 ch out is enough) and an
appropriate
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
Post by Jörn Nettingsmeier
Dante
converter. Should be cheaper, if you have the Mac lying around,
and
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
no
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
Post by Jörn Nettingsmeier
less
robust if the hardware is otherwise ok.
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
De Rijpgracht 8, 1055VR Amsterdam, Nederland
Tel. +49 177 7937487
Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio), Tonmeister VDT
http://stackingdwarves.net
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
here,
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Professor Richard Foss
Computer Science Department
Rhodes University
Grahamstown 6140
South Africa
Tel: +27 46 6038294
Cell: +27 83 288 9354
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
here,
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Professor Richard Foss
Computer Science Department
Rhodes University
Grahamstown 6140
South Africa
Tel: +27 46 6038294
Cell: +27 83 288 9354
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
here,
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Augustine Leudar
2017-06-28 21:15:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Indeed the Utrack looks great - but I would like to hear back from someone
who has actually used one for as a 24 channel player .....
Hi Augustine, this sounds like an interesting application. I was recently
at the Buddhist rhythm garden in Hong Kong and experienced a multi-speaker
system within the garden - it was very effective. The UTrack24 looks great,
and affordable. Do you control the internal DSP mixer to have sounds moving
across speakers or would this be pre-mixed into the channels you send? I
have been using mixer matrices within the N-DAC8s and SPK-4Ps to provide
immersive effects. The nice thing here is that you have a standard protocol
to enable this. To use the N-DAC8s for your application you would indeed
need to have 3 x N-DAC8s ($900) and a computer.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Hi Richard and Guillaume,
Interesting stuff. Two things to note - the installation is in a tropical
botanic garden so I am using a certain type of speaker that is pretty
resilient (used in saunas etc) whci is passive (for obvious reasons) and
connected by speaker cable . The AVB amps sound interesting - any links to
the highest channel count ones ? I am not quite sure what advantage 4 * N-DAC8
($1200) + computer ($ ???) would get me over one Utrack 24 or even a Joeco
other than the fact its connects via ethernet rather than USB , bearing in
mind that the speaker will be connected analogue via a a couple of
multichannel amplifiers.....
Yes, I agree with Guillaume - AVB is a good option. miniDSP sell an 8
Post by Richard Foss
channel box AVB box, the N-DAC8, for $299.
With three of these you have 24 channels, and they all run off the same
network clock. You would also need a small (4/5 port) switch.
A more expensive, but also easily configurable option is their SPK-4P
Power over Ethernet option ($395). For 22 channels, you would then have 22
speakers connected to a 24 port switch. Power, audio, and control then all
travel over one cable, which makes for easy configuration. Again, all
speakers are synced to the same network master.
Richard.
Aside from dante, AVB is another option for multichannel audio over
Post by Guillaume Le Nost
ethernet.
It is now available as standard (and for free) in any Mac running a
biamp, crown, l-acoustics to list a few.
If converters are required, the Motu AVB series can help, and is
relatively inexpensive.
Guillaume
On 28 Jun 2017, at 18:00, Jörn Nettingsmeier <
Post by Jörn Nettingsmeier
Post by Augustine Leudar
see my post before last for what went wrong. How much are the Joecos ?
https://www.thomann.de/gb/joeco_bbr64_dante_blackbox_recorder.htm
However, if you go the Dante route, you might as well use an old Minimac
with a virtual soundcard (if 32 ch out is enough) and an appropriate Dante
converter. Should be cheaper, if you have the Mac lying around, and no less
robust if the hardware is otherwise ok.
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
De Rijpgracht 8, 1055VR Amsterdam, Nederland
Tel. +49 177 7937487
Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio), Tonmeister VDT
http://stackingdwarves.net
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Computer Science Department
Rhodes University
Grahamstown 6140
South Africa
Tel: +27 46 6038294
Cell: +27 83 288 9354
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Rhodes University
Grahamstown 6140
South Africa
Tel: +27 46 6038294
Cell: +27 83 288 9354
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Sampo Syreeni
2017-06-28 02:03:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Augustine Leudar
I know I've asked this before but maybe there's some new developments.
HAs anyone any suggestions for anything up to a permanent 22 channel
installation (could be two devices started at the same time and set to
loop). [...]
Why not just have a couple of commodity PC's running the highest channel
count external D/A converters you can muster within your budget? Given
the existence of 7.1 home cinema, lots of implicitly synchronized
converters already exist, at reasonable cost. Given the existence of
newer USB, Firewire, HDMI and even Ethernet based transports, reliably
feeding such multibank converters shouldn't be a problem.

The only problem is how to keep up synchronization between the
converters. But then that ought to be a problem which is soluble by
feedback and software.

First, even low-range modern converters keep pretty good time all by
themselves. They don't drift too much, compared to what we can hear in
spatial reproduction; compared to accidentally moving the listeners'
heads ten centimetres or so in aggregate, even an average free running
commercial converter will keep adequate time over minutes or tens of
minutes by comparison.

And second, if you really want to make sure your separate converters run
in time with each other, it's possible to insert an inaudible timing
reference into the signal set which lets you do continuous feedback
correction. If this sounds alarming, it should: lots of papers and
trials exist which purported to make inaudible changes to the program
material, yet proved to degrade playback. Especially on the digital
watermarking side the results have been dismal.

But then, here the application would be rather different. First, unlike
in watermarking, there would be no requirement for the added signal to
be highly resilient. Instead it could be optimized to be highly
inaudible. That means that if it was only added to aid in
synchronization, it would need a very narrow bandwidth, amplitude and
the resulting extremely low data rate, so that it could be buried *well*
below even the perceptual noisefloor of an existing recording.

And secondly, it would only be present upon playback. It wouldn't need
to be buried into the original program material. It could be optimized
further, e.g. on psychoacoustical grounds, over just the one playback
system, or switched off at will if it ever somehow annoyed any listener.
It could also be different for each playback system, and each
reproduction instance, so that the human hearing system's notorious
capability of learning to recognize even low level noise signals, if
repeated many enough times verbatim, could still be subverted.

As I said, I don't think such solutions exist as of now. But I also
think the theory behind them is well developed enough to make their
implementation for your use almost trivial. All we'd need is a) an
inaudible reference signal to provide us with a relative delay reference
(easily doable via MLS sequences or the like), 2) a self-acquiring servo
loop to drive a set of relative delay estimates to zero (a simple
exercise in first order control theory, with the driving measurement
being derived from an FFT implemented autocorrelation measure), and 3) a
high grade, capable of continuous variability delay resampler to be
driven by such a measurement-correction loop (implementable utilizing
part of said FFT machinery, or separately if e.g. oversampling, minimum
phase characteristics or something such is required).

I'll attach Olli Niemitalo here, because he might be even more well
versed than I am in this sort of thing, and certainly is the more
adventuresome+productive of us two, in the signal processing department.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof,
Tape one gigabit ethernet cable into the floor, leading to your
converter bank in the next combustion compartment. Software gang it up
with a wifi route leading to the same destination.

The only way it's proofer to the end of the world, or your kids, is a
setup where you can't actually route back the signal to be heard, in the
first place. ;)
--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - ***@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
Augustine Leudar
2017-06-28 08:38:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Sampo - please read my original post - I would rather use an elaborate
system of ball bearings designed to perform convoluted series of tricks and
and miniature acrobatic performances before eventually, at the end of their
long journey, banging into the play buttons of multiple mp3 players than
use two PCs synced together :) Joking aside - thanks for your thoughts - I
have friends who are looking for a something like this as a cheap multi
channel solution but to be honest I wouldn't trust it for this gig....
Post by Augustine Leudar
I know I've asked this before but maybe there's some new developments. HAs
Post by Augustine Leudar
anyone any suggestions for anything up to a permanent 22 channel
installation (could be two devices started at the same time and set to
loop). [...]
Why not just have a couple of commodity PC's running the highest channel
count external D/A converters you can muster within your budget? Given the
existence of 7.1 home cinema, lots of implicitly synchronized converters
already exist, at reasonable cost. Given the existence of newer USB,
Firewire, HDMI and even Ethernet based transports, reliably feeding such
multibank converters shouldn't be a problem.
The only problem is how to keep up synchronization between the converters.
But then that ought to be a problem which is soluble by feedback and
software.
First, even low-range modern converters keep pretty good time all by
themselves. They don't drift too much, compared to what we can hear in
spatial reproduction; compared to accidentally moving the listeners' heads
ten centimetres or so in aggregate, even an average free running commercial
converter will keep adequate time over minutes or tens of minutes by
comparison.
And second, if you really want to make sure your separate converters run
in time with each other, it's possible to insert an inaudible timing
reference into the signal set which lets you do continuous feedback
correction. If this sounds alarming, it should: lots of papers and trials
exist which purported to make inaudible changes to the program material,
yet proved to degrade playback. Especially on the digital watermarking side
the results have been dismal.
But then, here the application would be rather different. First, unlike in
watermarking, there would be no requirement for the added signal to be
highly resilient. Instead it could be optimized to be highly inaudible.
That means that if it was only added to aid in synchronization, it would
need a very narrow bandwidth, amplitude and the resulting extremely low
data rate, so that it could be buried *well* below even the perceptual
noisefloor of an existing recording.
And secondly, it would only be present upon playback. It wouldn't need to
be buried into the original program material. It could be optimized
further, e.g. on psychoacoustical grounds, over just the one playback
system, or switched off at will if it ever somehow annoyed any listener. It
could also be different for each playback system, and each reproduction
instance, so that the human hearing system's notorious capability of
learning to recognize even low level noise signals, if repeated many enough
times verbatim, could still be subverted.
As I said, I don't think such solutions exist as of now. But I also think
the theory behind them is well developed enough to make their
implementation for your use almost trivial. All we'd need is a) an
inaudible reference signal to provide us with a relative delay reference
(easily doable via MLS sequences or the like), 2) a self-acquiring servo
loop to drive a set of relative delay estimates to zero (a simple exercise
in first order control theory, with the driving measurement being derived
from an FFT implemented autocorrelation measure), and 3) a high grade,
capable of continuous variability delay resampler to be driven by such a
measurement-correction loop (implementable utilizing part of said FFT
machinery, or separately if e.g. oversampling, minimum phase
characteristics or something such is required).
I'll attach Olli Niemitalo here, because he might be even more well versed
than I am in this sort of thing, and certainly is the more
adventuresome+productive of us two, in the signal processing department.
Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof,
Tape one gigabit ethernet cable into the floor, leading to your converter
bank in the next combustion compartment. Software gang it up with a wifi
route leading to the same destination.
The only way it's proofer to the end of the world, or your kids, is a
setup where you can't actually route back the signal to be heard, in the
first place. ;)
--
+358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Sampo Syreeni
2017-06-28 11:51:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Sampo - please read my original post - [...]
Will read.
I have friends who are looking for a something like this as a cheap
multi channel solution but to be honest I wouldn't trust it for this
gig....
Since what I'm talking about doesn't exist and your gig is drawing near,
neither would I.

But given some time and some surprisingly minimal effort, what I mean to
say is that you can approach thorough perfection along the lines I
jotted out above, using reasonably priced hardware. What I'm thinking
about isn't a second best solution you can best with dedicated hardware
sync; it's the first best solution no hardware solution can even
theoretically best, at any price point, because of the trouble with high
fanout clock distribution.

*If* you can drive the differential delay of your distributed converter
bank to any quantifiable level, you *also* can drive it *much* lower
with minimal extra cost, using something like the design I alluded to
above. Then, it's possibly to get equivalent performance from a setup
much cheaper once you trade back to cost efficiency using that better
tech.

Such a tradeoff isn't theoretical. It can be done now, if somebody just
puts hir mind to it. It can then make the difference between a
prohitively expensive, ideal by pure analogue clock distribution
standards rig, which never sees the light of day, or if it does, only
proves a one time wonder; and an easily scalable, easily perceptually
competitive rig, which when once even half perfected, could serve as a
generalized, affordable substrate for all high channel count work in the
future.

Maybe I missed something; as you say, I'll have to reread or original
post in full.

But if I *didn't* miss anything, I believe what you're after is simply a
high number of well synched channels, at a reasonable price point. You
want to get 22 of them right? Possibly more? You want them to be child
and bomb proof, too, right?

You can't get that kind of hardware in over seven channels. You can't
get it compactly in over for, or perhaps six. Even then the stuff will
take the form of developer boards or SoC based hacker boards such as the
Pi.

So, you're going to have to do some integration work in any case for
channel counts as high as you're asking for. My favourite would be
something like a Raspberry Pi for each eight channels, stacking the D/A
converters on top on 2x4 daughterboards. That'd buy you 8 channels per
board, with ample processing power and Ethernet connectivity to spare.
You could even push it as far as three daughter boards, so 12 channels
per motherboard, and you still wouldn't saturate either of the USB or
the Ethernet port. But you be pushing the processor quite a lot already,
if you did any substantial processing, such as well-resampled fractional
sample delay correction which I suggested above.

In any case, if you want to make the thing truly nuclear proof, what you
do is spray the whole circuit board with insulating spray lacquer. All
connectors attached and with all contacts wetted with mercury wapor,
alloyed by a tiny impurity of silver chlorate. Let dry. Reapply in small
patches the lacquer, then hairlike aluminium shavings to cover the
thing. If you need to form thermal conduits via what follows, solder
them in place before the first lacquer application, and file/wet as need
be to ensure thermal contact, while retaining electrical insulation by
air, around; after the first application of lacquer, it displaces the
air in the negative space around in a non-geometry-deforming matter, and
takes the place of the prerequisite insulator/dieletric in any free
circuits (obviously anything like an open, air core coil would now be
fucked up by the new dielectric; don't use them, or if you do, calibrate
for the new medium beforehand). If you really want to be thorough and
weird, you'd wet the newest surface with slightly chemically polarized
mercury vapour again, imbibed with a small amount of metallic silver.
You'd single point ground the resulting, mirror-like surface one-point,
as the Faraday cage that it is.

Make sure every lead going into and coming out of the circuit has a
small, smooth, exactly toroidal ferrite ring goung around it where it
exits the black that we're going to make out of the circuit, below. Then
cast the whole thing in solid two part resin, reaching at least 2-3
millimetres from the outest envelope of the encased circuit board and
all of its components, in any and all directions. Use porous paper to
maker sure the ferrite ring derived exists for any leads stay clear of
the resin, so that the know beneath takes the stress if somebody
stretches anything, so that such tensile stress doesn't break one of the
rings and so its slight (but rising) HF suppression characteristic, and
so that the ring can at the same time serve as a permanent, rounded
outlet to the lead going through it, so any stresses from any direction
lead to approximate minimum shearing in all directions at the outlet,
over the inner curvature of the ring.

No voids, eversosmall, would otherwise be allowed. The whole end product
must be slowly poured from its corner, so as to eventually look like
something preserved in amber.

Once you learn to do that sort of treatment in bulk, pipelined, you can
easily turn out the circuits at a rate of some 30-50 per hour. If you
really need to. They will be repeated-nuclear-strike-EMP survivable, you
can feed them to your pet crocodile and have them work all the way
through without loss of function, given a sturdy enough cable
interfacing with the thing you can take hold of it and beat a grown man
dead with your D/A/computerpack, you can dip the thing in most acids and
and bases with no discernible damage, and not to mention, choosing your
resin right, you can have your smallest of babies lick, chew and fondle
at the thing, with no adverse health effects.

But it'd still go with my original, rather less expensive and involved
design, using software to compensate for the timing inaccuracies of
unmodified commodity hardware. ;)
--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - ***@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
Marc Lavallée
2017-06-28 13:37:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
The Raspberry PI route is interesting and relatively cheap.
There are now 8-channel "hats" like this one:
http://www.suptronics.com/miniPCkits/x6000-8.0ch.html
and there's even one board with a 4x100W amp in the making.
Check all boards: http://www.suptronics.com/boards.html
I love my $30 X400 hat with the integrated speaker and headphone amps.

But a 24-channel RPI based solution would be much more difficult to
integrate and would still cost over $400, which is about the same price
than the uTrack24 (but only in Europe where it's sold for 375 euros; in
the US it's $999, go figure).

Then, there's the problem of building a custom Linux system for the task
of playing audio (and doing tax returns). Then the required logic to
synchronize 2 or more RPIs must be added. Also, the RPI takes at least a
minute to boot from an unreliable SD card. It'd be fun, but a bit risky.

One possibility is to add 2 USB sound modules to the RPI, synchronizing
them to the 8-channel hat using the zita-ajbridge software, but I doubt
that a SD card can provide enough bandwidth for 24 channels of
uncompressed audio, even at 16bit/44.1Khz.

So I still believe that for a reliable computer based solution, a
single PC computer would be easier and safer. Also, the PC platform is
mature, and a well defined method can survive PC hardware upgrades.

--
Marc

On Wed, 28 Jun 2017 14:51:09 +0300 (EEST)
Post by Sampo Syreeni
But if I *didn't* miss anything, I believe what you're after is
simply a high number of well synched channels, at a reasonable price
point. You want to get 22 of them right? Possibly more? You want them
to be child and bomb proof, too, right?
You can't get that kind of hardware in over seven channels. You can't
get it compactly in over for, or perhaps six. Even then the stuff
will take the form of developer boards or SoC based hacker boards
such as the Pi.
So, you're going to have to do some integration work in any case for
channel counts as high as you're asking for. My favourite would be
something like a Raspberry Pi for each eight channels, stacking the
D/A converters on top on 2x4 daughterboards. That'd buy you 8
channels per board, with ample processing power and Ethernet
connectivity to spare. You could even push it as far as three
daughter boards, so 12 channels per motherboard, and you still
wouldn't saturate either of the USB or the Ethernet port. But you be
pushing the processor quite a lot already, if you did any substantial
processing, such as well-resampled fractional sample delay correction
which I suggested above.
--
Marc
Augustine Leudar
2017-06-28 15:21:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
The Rasberry pi route does look really interesting - maybe for another
installation - but I really want this one to last years and its had so much
hard work put into the sound (started this one around 15 years ago) I
really really want it to be rock solid and not let down by the hardware
peripherals. I am not attached to any particular solution computer or
otherwise - I just want it to work - budget is a factor but I think the
client will want something more expensive that lasts than something cheaper
that doesnt and I dont want to cut corners.. The last two installations
both computer and motu were sealed in church altars in a museum - yet
despite being hidden and laden with warning signs - they still got
switched off by cleaners and there wer epower cuts. They were interactive
so had to use computers - they used infrared range sensors (another note -
when temperature changes so does the threshold of the infraredrange sensors
to trigger events - I think it will be ultrasonic next time). Occasionally
when rebooted the multichannel file playing software - did not find the
motu audio driver but just went to the realtek MME. I was called out on a
couple of occasions just to change the driver settings, once just to plug
the computer back in. I think the problem with the motus might have been
the cold - these places were unheated and winters were bad. I have used
motus when doing installations in the Amazon and they were fine - perhaps
they just prefer the heat.
The idea of using a computer has its appeal if I can get on the network and
change files out - that presents interesting remote possibilities , as well
as of course being able to repair software problems remotely - I am sure
plenty of installations round the world have been running on computers
quite happily for years - however the physical location this system will be
installed in (ie staff will have access) and the experience Ive had, even
after taking every precaution - makes me wary of using a computer for this
particular installation. The Cymatic and the Joeco look promising . The
Cymatic is £375 and the Joe Co is around £2000. The difference in price is
not really the issue for me - but reliability is. However I have already
read reports of the Cymatic being more reliable in some situations and the
agent at DV247 said they had never been sent one back - they also would
both come with the same guarantee - 3 years .
I would be interested if anyone has any experience with either of them ?
Post by Marc Lavallée
The Raspberry PI route is interesting and relatively cheap.
http://www.suptronics.com/miniPCkits/x6000-8.0ch.html
and there's even one board with a 4x100W amp in the making.
Check all boards: http://www.suptronics.com/boards.html
I love my $30 X400 hat with the integrated speaker and headphone amps.
But a 24-channel RPI based solution would be much more difficult to
integrate and would still cost over $400, which is about the same price
than the uTrack24 (but only in Europe where it's sold for 375 euros; in
the US it's $999, go figure).
Then, there's the problem of building a custom Linux system for the task
of playing audio (and doing tax returns). Then the required logic to
synchronize 2 or more RPIs must be added. Also, the RPI takes at least a
minute to boot from an unreliable SD card. It'd be fun, but a bit risky.
One possibility is to add 2 USB sound modules to the RPI, synchronizing
them to the 8-channel hat using the zita-ajbridge software, but I doubt
that a SD card can provide enough bandwidth for 24 channels of
uncompressed audio, even at 16bit/44.1Khz.
So I still believe that for a reliable computer based solution, a
single PC computer would be easier and safer. Also, the PC platform is
mature, and a well defined method can survive PC hardware upgrades.
--
Marc
On Wed, 28 Jun 2017 14:51:09 +0300 (EEST)
Post by Sampo Syreeni
But if I *didn't* miss anything, I believe what you're after is
simply a high number of well synched channels, at a reasonable price
point. You want to get 22 of them right? Possibly more? You want them
to be child and bomb proof, too, right?
You can't get that kind of hardware in over seven channels. You can't
get it compactly in over for, or perhaps six. Even then the stuff
will take the form of developer boards or SoC based hacker boards
such as the Pi.
So, you're going to have to do some integration work in any case for
channel counts as high as you're asking for. My favourite would be
something like a Raspberry Pi for each eight channels, stacking the
D/A converters on top on 2x4 daughterboards. That'd buy you 8
channels per board, with ample processing power and Ethernet
connectivity to spare. You could even push it as far as three
daughter boards, so 12 channels per motherboard, and you still
wouldn't saturate either of the USB or the Ethernet port. But you be
pushing the processor quite a lot already, if you did any substantial
processing, such as well-resampled fractional sample delay correction
which I suggested above.
--
Marc
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Sampo Syreeni
2017-07-01 07:02:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Marc Lavallée
But a 24-channel RPI based solution would be much more difficult to
integrate and would still cost over $400, which is about the same
price than the uTrack24 [...]
I wasn't aware of that one before now. So I have to fold: you can't beat
something like that if it does *half* what it's supposed to. Especially
since they promise you can gang them upto four units at a time.

I'd advise a modicum of caution, however. I mean, they never say you can
beam all those channels off the thing in real time, they don't talk a
whole lot about doing simultaneous A/D and D/A at the same time, and
even the fact that you can only get the full 24 channels at a reduced
sample rate of 48kHz (only 8 at the full 96kHz one) took a bit of
digging. Their customer service, while well-meaning, also doesn't seem
to be the most technically minded or most connected to the resident
engineer. I couldn't get a clear synch guarantee for the hardware of the
like we'd have to have for HOA and/or WFS work. So, there might yet be a
devil or two in the details.

But still, you are right. Both the price point and the specs of that
thing are *insane*. If they do even *half* of what they claim, there's
just no possible way you can beat it by building your own. Even a
well-regulated power rail for your converters could eat up half of an
amateur's budget. Jesus... :D
--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - ***@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
Augustine Leudar
2017-07-01 08:21:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
exactly Sampo - the Devil in the detail is why I am hoping someone will get
back to us who has used one. I asked on their forum if you could definately
set up a 24 channel interleaved (or 24 mono) files to play back to discrete
channels on a loop. He assured me it could - then a couple of posts later
suggested I download their UTool software just to make sure......
Post by Marc Lavallée
But a 24-channel RPI based solution would be much more difficult to
Post by Marc Lavallée
integrate and would still cost over $400, which is about the same price
than the uTrack24 [...]
I wasn't aware of that one before now. So I have to fold: you can't beat
something like that if it does *half* what it's supposed to. Especially
since they promise you can gang them upto four units at a time.
I'd advise a modicum of caution, however. I mean, they never say you can
beam all those channels off the thing in real time, they don't talk a whole
lot about doing simultaneous A/D and D/A at the same time, and even the
fact that you can only get the full 24 channels at a reduced sample rate of
48kHz (only 8 at the full 96kHz one) took a bit of digging. Their customer
service, while well-meaning, also doesn't seem to be the most technically
minded or most connected to the resident engineer. I couldn't get a clear
synch guarantee for the hardware of the like we'd have to have for HOA
and/or WFS work. So, there might yet be a devil or two in the details.
But still, you are right. Both the price point and the specs of that thing
are *insane*. If they do even *half* of what they claim, there's just no
possible way you can beat it by building your own. Even a well-regulated
power rail for your converters could eat up half of an amateur's budget.
Jesus... :D
--
+358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Dave Hunt
2017-06-29 16:04:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi,

I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input
will require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet
cable. Perhaps for very small speakers with a low power digital
amplifier, but anything decent would require mains (or DC batteries)
to the speaker.

The available current may power the DAC though.

Ciao,

Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
designed in pre production for this installation and then its just a
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I do
are
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime
around the
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing
might be
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like the
way
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet cable.....
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Augustine Leudar
2017-06-29 16:38:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
aye - and that would kind of defeat the advantage of it - Ill stick to
passive for now - Ive always found active speakers a bit of a pain for
larger site specific stuff because you have to run power to them as well
as audio.
These look like they might be OK for some stuff :

https://www.immersivedsp.com/products/spk-4p

but Im a bit unsure as to what exactly they can do - can you daisy chain
them (as discrete channels) or would you have to run a seperate ethernet
cable to each one ?
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input will
require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet cable. Perhaps
for very small speakers with a low power digital amplifier, but anything
decent would require mains (or DC batteries) to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the soundscape is
designed in pre production for this installation and then its just a
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I do are
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime around the
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing might be
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like the way
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet cable.....
-------------- next part --------------
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_______________________________________________
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edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Richard Foss
2017-06-29 19:49:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
can you daisy chain them (as discrete channels) or would you have to run a seperate ethernet cable to each one?
You would run a separate Ethernet cable from a switch to each one. So for example, running a DAW on a Mac, you would output your tracks to the outputs made available by the Mac AVB virtual audio entity, and each speaker would listen to one of the outputs.

You would use PoE+, not PoE, and each speaker is powered by a Merus audio Eximo amplifier, providing 30W. With the Mac you could connect up to 120 speakers. You also have the possibility of connecting a separate passive speaker to the powered one, providing 2 x 15W.

Here is a bit more info:

http://www.technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp-integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/ <http://www.technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp-integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/>

Richard.
aye - and that would kind of defeat the advantage of it - Ill stick to
passive for now - Ive always found active speakers a bit of a pain for
larger site specific stuff because you have to run power to them as well
as audio.
https://www.immersivedsp.com/products/spk-4p
but Im a bit unsure as to what exactly they can do - can you daisy chain
them (as discrete channels) or would you have to run a seperate ethernet
cable to each one ?
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input will
require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet cable. Perhaps
for very small speakers with a low power digital amplifier, but anything
decent would require mains (or DC batteries) to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the soundscape is
designed in pre production for this installation and then its just a
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I do are
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime around the
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing might be
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like the way
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet cable.....
-------------- next part --------------
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_______________________________________________
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https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Augustine Leudar
2017-06-29 20:25:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi Richard -
So if I have this right no interface is required - just the ethernet out of
the mac ?
can you daisy chain them (as discrete channels) or would you have to run
a seperate ethernet cable to each one?
You would run a separate Ethernet cable from a switch to each one. So for
example, running a DAW on a Mac, you would output your tracks to the
outputs made available by the Mac AVB virtual audio entity, and each
speaker would listen to one of the outputs.
You would use PoE+, not PoE, and each speaker is powered by a Merus audio
Eximo amplifier, providing 30W. With the Mac you could connect up to 120
speakers. You also have the possibility of connecting a separate passive
speaker to the powered one, providing 2 x 15W.
http://www.technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp-
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/ <http://www.
technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp-
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/>
Richard.
aye - and that would kind of defeat the advantage of it - Ill stick to
passive for now - Ive always found active speakers a bit of a pain for
larger site specific stuff because you have to run power to them as well
as audio.
https://www.immersivedsp.com/products/spk-4p
but Im a bit unsure as to what exactly they can do - can you daisy chain
them (as discrete channels) or would you have to run a seperate ethernet
cable to each one ?
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input will
require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet cable.
Perhaps
for very small speakers with a low power digital amplifier, but anything
decent would require mains (or DC batteries) to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
designed in pre production for this installation and then its just a
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I do are
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime around
the
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing might
be
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like the way
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet cable.....
-------------- next part --------------
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--
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Belfast BT88LL
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Richard Foss
2017-06-29 20:52:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
That’s correct Augustine - just the Ethernet out the Mac. That will go into an Ethernet AVB compliant PoE+ switch (extreme, netgear etc).

The SPK-4Ps will be connected to other ports of the switch. You can link together switches for larger port numbers.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Hi Richard -
So if I have this right no interface is required - just the ethernet out of
the mac ?
can you daisy chain them (as discrete channels) or would you have to run
a seperate ethernet cable to each one?
You would run a separate Ethernet cable from a switch to each one. So for
example, running a DAW on a Mac, you would output your tracks to the
outputs made available by the Mac AVB virtual audio entity, and each
speaker would listen to one of the outputs.
You would use PoE+, not PoE, and each speaker is powered by a Merus audio
Eximo amplifier, providing 30W. With the Mac you could connect up to 120
speakers. You also have the possibility of connecting a separate passive
speaker to the powered one, providing 2 x 15W.
http://www.technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp-
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/ <http://www <http://www/>.
technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp- <http://technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp->
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/>
Richard.
aye - and that would kind of defeat the advantage of it - Ill stick to
passive for now - Ive always found active speakers a bit of a pain for
larger site specific stuff because you have to run power to them as well
as audio.
https://www.immersivedsp.com/products/spk-4p
but Im a bit unsure as to what exactly they can do - can you daisy chain
them (as discrete channels) or would you have to run a seperate ethernet
cable to each one ?
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input will
require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet cable.
Perhaps
for very small speakers with a low power digital amplifier, but anything
decent would require mains (or DC batteries) to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
designed in pre production for this installation and then its just a
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I do are
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime around
the
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing might
be
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like the way
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet cable.....
-------------- next part --------------
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_______________________________________________
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--
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Belfast BT88LL
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Richard Foss
2017-06-29 21:28:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
One other thing - you mentioned wanting to move audio channels in real time - you can move up to 32 channels around in the speaker space, using a client-server program called Immergo. The server runs on the Mac and the client on the Mac or a remote tablet - its web browser based, so you type in a URL. You successively select tracks and move them around a representation of your speaker space. You can record and play back the movements. The movements are realized via mixer matrices in the speakers.

So its two different approaches you can use - pre-prepared channels with movement incorporated (guess you would use the terminology ‘bed channels’) or channels that can be moved via the mixer matrices (object audio style), where metadata containing time stamped 3D coords is recorded.

Richard.
Post by Richard Foss
That’s correct Augustine - just the Ethernet out the Mac. That will go into an Ethernet AVB compliant PoE+ switch (extreme, netgear etc).
The SPK-4Ps will be connected to other ports of the switch. You can link together switches for larger port numbers.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Hi Richard -
So if I have this right no interface is required - just the ethernet out of
the mac ?
can you daisy chain them (as discrete channels) or would you have to run
a seperate ethernet cable to each one?
You would run a separate Ethernet cable from a switch to each one. So for
example, running a DAW on a Mac, you would output your tracks to the
outputs made available by the Mac AVB virtual audio entity, and each
speaker would listen to one of the outputs.
You would use PoE+, not PoE, and each speaker is powered by a Merus audio
Eximo amplifier, providing 30W. With the Mac you could connect up to 120
speakers. You also have the possibility of connecting a separate passive
speaker to the powered one, providing 2 x 15W.
http://www.technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp-
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/ <http://www <http://www/>.
technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp- <http://technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp->
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/>
Richard.
aye - and that would kind of defeat the advantage of it - Ill stick to
passive for now - Ive always found active speakers a bit of a pain for
larger site specific stuff because you have to run power to them as well
as audio.
https://www.immersivedsp.com/products/spk-4p
but Im a bit unsure as to what exactly they can do - can you daisy chain
them (as discrete channels) or would you have to run a seperate ethernet
cable to each one ?
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input will
require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet cable.
Perhaps
for very small speakers with a low power digital amplifier, but anything
decent would require mains (or DC batteries) to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
designed in pre production for this installation and then its just a
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I do are
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime around
the
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing might
be
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like the way
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet cable.....
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--
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Belfast BT88LL
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Augustine Leudar
2017-06-29 21:38:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Thats pretty impressive Richard - I would definately consider this system
in future for indoor stuff. In terms of interactive and automation - I do
that in MaxMSP mostly - so we have things like an accelerometer on your
hand and wherever you point there is a sound etc etc - you also have a map
of the speakers and pan around that map (using Dbap basically) - Ive seen a
lot of third party systems that do automation etc - but I am already pretty
happy with max for interactive 3D audio - theres nothing Ive found I
couldnt do yet ! But I guess I could integrate max easily enough with the
AVB system.
Post by Richard Foss
One other thing - you mentioned wanting to move audio channels in real
time - you can move up to 32 channels around in the speaker space, using a
client-server program called Immergo. The server runs on the Mac and the
client on the Mac or a remote tablet - its web browser based, so you type
in a URL. You successively select tracks and move them around a
representation of your speaker space. You can record and play back the
movements. The movements are realized via mixer matrices in the speakers.
So its two different approaches you can use - pre-prepared channels with
movement incorporated (guess you would use the terminology ‘bed channels’)
or channels that can be moved via the mixer matrices (object audio style),
where metadata containing time stamped 3D coords is recorded.
Richard.
Post by Richard Foss
That’s correct Augustine - just the Ethernet out the Mac. That will go
into an Ethernet AVB compliant PoE+ switch (extreme, netgear etc).
Post by Richard Foss
The SPK-4Ps will be connected to other ports of the switch. You can link
together switches for larger port numbers.
Post by Richard Foss
On 29 Jun 2017, at 10:25 PM, Augustine Leudar <
Hi Richard -
So if I have this right no interface is required - just the ethernet
out of
Post by Richard Foss
the mac ?
can you daisy chain them (as discrete channels) or would you have to
run
Post by Richard Foss
a seperate ethernet cable to each one?
You would run a separate Ethernet cable from a switch to each one. So
for
Post by Richard Foss
example, running a DAW on a Mac, you would output your tracks to the
outputs made available by the Mac AVB virtual audio entity, and each
speaker would listen to one of the outputs.
You would use PoE+, not PoE, and each speaker is powered by a Merus
audio
Post by Richard Foss
Eximo amplifier, providing 30W. With the Mac you could connect up to
120
Post by Richard Foss
speakers. You also have the possibility of connecting a separate
passive
Post by Richard Foss
speaker to the powered one, providing 2 x 15W.
http://www.technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp-
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/ <http://www <
http://www/>.
Post by Richard Foss
technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp- <
http://technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp->
Post by Richard Foss
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/>
Richard.
On 29 Jun 2017, at 6:38 PM, Augustine Leudar <
aye - and that would kind of defeat the advantage of it - Ill stick to
passive for now - Ive always found active speakers a bit of a pain for
larger site specific stuff because you have to run power to them as
well
Post by Richard Foss
as audio.
https://www.immersivedsp.com/products/spk-4p
but Im a bit unsure as to what exactly they can do - can you daisy
chain
Post by Richard Foss
them (as discrete channels) or would you have to run a seperate
ethernet
Post by Richard Foss
cable to each one ?
Post by Dave Hunt
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input
will
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet cable.
Perhaps
Post by Dave Hunt
for very small speakers with a low power digital amplifier, but
anything
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
decent would require mains (or DC batteries) to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Post by Dave Hunt
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
Post by Dave Hunt
designed in pre production for this installation and then its just a
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I do
are
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime
around
Post by Richard Foss
the
Post by Dave Hunt
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing
might
Post by Richard Foss
be
Post by Dave Hunt
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like the
way
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet cable.....
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Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Company Number : NI635217
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Belfast BT88LL
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Richard Foss
2017-06-30 08:33:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
That sounds great Augustine, and fun! Certainly highlights the flexibility and capability of Max/MSP.

Immergo uses the gyroscope of the smartphone/tablet for orientation determination.

The typical mode of working is to touch-move a sound source (circle) around a representation of the sound space on the screen, for two dimensional movement, and to tilt the device at the same time for the third dimension. You can request that all three axes are provided by phone orientation though. So then it would be like pointing the device to indicate the location of the sound.

The rendering algorithm is selectable - DBAP is used for unusual speaker arrangements, like an art installation ’tunnel’ that we are currently setting up. But you can select VBAP if the speakers are arranged on a sphere. Big thank you’s to Trond Lossius and Ville Pulkki who made their algorithms freely available!!

A long overdue and pleasurable task is to use Max with Immergo. Currently using the Reaper DAW. I will keep you updated.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Thats pretty impressive Richard - I would definately consider this system
in future for indoor stuff. In terms of interactive and automation - I do
that in MaxMSP mostly - so we have things like an accelerometer on your
hand and wherever you point there is a sound etc etc - you also have a map
of the speakers and pan around that map (using Dbap basically) - Ive seen a
lot of third party systems that do automation etc - but I am already pretty
happy with max for interactive 3D audio - theres nothing Ive found I
couldnt do yet ! But I guess I could integrate max easily enough with the
AVB system.
Post by Richard Foss
One other thing - you mentioned wanting to move audio channels in real
time - you can move up to 32 channels around in the speaker space, using a
client-server program called Immergo. The server runs on the Mac and the
client on the Mac or a remote tablet - its web browser based, so you type
in a URL. You successively select tracks and move them around a
representation of your speaker space. You can record and play back the
movements. The movements are realized via mixer matrices in the speakers.
So its two different approaches you can use - pre-prepared channels with
movement incorporated (guess you would use the terminology ‘bed channels’)
or channels that can be moved via the mixer matrices (object audio style),
where metadata containing time stamped 3D coords is recorded.
Richard.
Post by Richard Foss
That’s correct Augustine - just the Ethernet out the Mac. That will go
into an Ethernet AVB compliant PoE+ switch (extreme, netgear etc).
Post by Richard Foss
The SPK-4Ps will be connected to other ports of the switch. You can link
together switches for larger port numbers.
Post by Richard Foss
On 29 Jun 2017, at 10:25 PM, Augustine Leudar <
Hi Richard -
So if I have this right no interface is required - just the ethernet
out of
Post by Richard Foss
the mac ?
can you daisy chain them (as discrete channels) or would you have to
run
Post by Richard Foss
a seperate ethernet cable to each one?
You would run a separate Ethernet cable from a switch to each one. So
for
Post by Richard Foss
example, running a DAW on a Mac, you would output your tracks to the
outputs made available by the Mac AVB virtual audio entity, and each
speaker would listen to one of the outputs.
You would use PoE+, not PoE, and each speaker is powered by a Merus
audio
Post by Richard Foss
Eximo amplifier, providing 30W. With the Mac you could connect up to
120
Post by Richard Foss
speakers. You also have the possibility of connecting a separate
passive
Post by Richard Foss
speaker to the powered one, providing 2 x 15W.
http://www.technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp-
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/ <http://www <
http://www/>.
Post by Richard Foss
technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp- <
http://technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp->
Post by Richard Foss
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/>
Richard.
On 29 Jun 2017, at 6:38 PM, Augustine Leudar <
aye - and that would kind of defeat the advantage of it - Ill stick to
passive for now - Ive always found active speakers a bit of a pain for
larger site specific stuff because you have to run power to them as
well
Post by Richard Foss
as audio.
https://www.immersivedsp.com/products/spk-4p
but Im a bit unsure as to what exactly they can do - can you daisy
chain
Post by Richard Foss
them (as discrete channels) or would you have to run a seperate
ethernet
Post by Richard Foss
cable to each one ?
Post by Dave Hunt
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input
will
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet cable.
Perhaps
Post by Dave Hunt
for very small speakers with a low power digital amplifier, but
anything
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
decent would require mains (or DC batteries) to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Post by Dave Hunt
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
Post by Dave Hunt
designed in pre production for this installation and then its just a
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I do
are
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime
around
Post by Richard Foss
the
Post by Dave Hunt
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing
might
Post by Richard Foss
be
Post by Dave Hunt
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like the
way
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet cable.....
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Post by Richard Foss
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--
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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--
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
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Belfast BT88LL
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Augustine Leudar
2017-06-30 08:37:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Funny - I have been involved in two 3d audio tunnels recently - if you ever
want to sync max up with your stuff let me know - I have also been matching
max with Unity and other 3D technologies recently which has produced
interesting results. Im doing a demo in London around the beginning of
September if you're around PM me :)
Post by Richard Foss
That sounds great Augustine, and fun! Certainly highlights the flexibility
and capability of Max/MSP.
Immergo uses the gyroscope of the smartphone/tablet for orientation determination.
The typical mode of working is to touch-move a sound source (circle)
around a representation of the sound space on the screen, for two
dimensional movement, and to tilt the device at the same time for the third
dimension. You can request that all three axes are provided by phone
orientation though. So then it would be like pointing the device to
indicate the location of the sound.
The rendering algorithm is selectable - DBAP is used for unusual speaker
arrangements, like an art installation ’tunnel’ that we are currently
setting up. But you can select VBAP if the speakers are arranged on a
sphere. Big thank you’s to Trond Lossius and Ville Pulkki who made their
algorithms freely available!!
A long overdue and pleasurable task is to use Max with Immergo. Currently
using the Reaper DAW. I will keep you updated.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Thats pretty impressive Richard - I would definately consider this system
in future for indoor stuff. In terms of interactive and automation - I do
that in MaxMSP mostly - so we have things like an accelerometer on your
hand and wherever you point there is a sound etc etc - you also have a
map
Post by Augustine Leudar
of the speakers and pan around that map (using Dbap basically) - Ive
seen a
Post by Augustine Leudar
lot of third party systems that do automation etc - but I am already
pretty
Post by Augustine Leudar
happy with max for interactive 3D audio - theres nothing Ive found I
couldnt do yet ! But I guess I could integrate max easily enough with the
AVB system.
Post by Richard Foss
One other thing - you mentioned wanting to move audio channels in real
time - you can move up to 32 channels around in the speaker space,
using a
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
client-server program called Immergo. The server runs on the Mac and the
client on the Mac or a remote tablet - its web browser based, so you
type
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
in a URL. You successively select tracks and move them around a
representation of your speaker space. You can record and play back the
movements. The movements are realized via mixer matrices in the
speakers.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
So its two different approaches you can use - pre-prepared channels with
movement incorporated (guess you would use the terminology ‘bed
channels’)
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
or channels that can be moved via the mixer matrices (object audio
style),
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
where metadata containing time stamped 3D coords is recorded.
Richard.
Post by Richard Foss
That’s correct Augustine - just the Ethernet out the Mac. That will go
into an Ethernet AVB compliant PoE+ switch (extreme, netgear etc).
Post by Richard Foss
The SPK-4Ps will be connected to other ports of the switch. You can
link
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
together switches for larger port numbers.
Post by Richard Foss
On 29 Jun 2017, at 10:25 PM, Augustine Leudar <
Hi Richard -
So if I have this right no interface is required - just the ethernet
out of
Post by Richard Foss
the mac ?
can you daisy chain them (as discrete channels) or would you have to
run
Post by Richard Foss
a seperate ethernet cable to each one?
You would run a separate Ethernet cable from a switch to each one. So
for
Post by Richard Foss
example, running a DAW on a Mac, you would output your tracks to the
outputs made available by the Mac AVB virtual audio entity, and each
speaker would listen to one of the outputs.
You would use PoE+, not PoE, and each speaker is powered by a Merus
audio
Post by Richard Foss
Eximo amplifier, providing 30W. With the Mac you could connect up to
120
Post by Richard Foss
speakers. You also have the possibility of connecting a separate
passive
Post by Richard Foss
speaker to the powered one, providing 2 x 15W.
http://www.technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp-
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/ <http://www
<
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
http://www/>.
Post by Richard Foss
technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp- <
http://technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp->
Post by Richard Foss
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/>
Richard.
On 29 Jun 2017, at 6:38 PM, Augustine Leudar <
aye - and that would kind of defeat the advantage of it - Ill stick
to
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
passive for now - Ive always found active speakers a bit of a pain
for
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
larger site specific stuff because you have to run power to them as
well
Post by Richard Foss
as audio.
https://www.immersivedsp.com/products/spk-4p
but Im a bit unsure as to what exactly they can do - can you daisy
chain
Post by Richard Foss
them (as discrete channels) or would you have to run a seperate
ethernet
Post by Richard Foss
cable to each one ?
Post by Dave Hunt
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input
will
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet cable.
Perhaps
Post by Dave Hunt
for very small speakers with a low power digital amplifier, but
anything
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
decent would require mains (or DC batteries) to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Post by Dave Hunt
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
Post by Dave Hunt
designed in pre production for this installation and then its
just a
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I
do
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
are
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime
around
Post by Richard Foss
the
Post by Dave Hunt
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing
might
Post by Richard Foss
be
Post by Dave Hunt
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like
the
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
way
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet cable.....
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Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Augustine Leudar
2017-06-30 09:37:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Im looking at your video here Richard :

https://vimeo.com/channels/tmt2016/192259189

also very inspiring !
Post by Augustine Leudar
Funny - I have been involved in two 3d audio tunnels recently - if you
ever want to sync max up with your stuff let me know - I have also been
matching max with Unity and other 3D technologies recently which has
produced interesting results. Im doing a demo in London around the
beginning of September if you're around PM me :)
Post by Richard Foss
That sounds great Augustine, and fun! Certainly highlights the
flexibility and capability of Max/MSP.
Immergo uses the gyroscope of the smartphone/tablet for orientation determination.
The typical mode of working is to touch-move a sound source (circle)
around a representation of the sound space on the screen, for two
dimensional movement, and to tilt the device at the same time for the third
dimension. You can request that all three axes are provided by phone
orientation though. So then it would be like pointing the device to
indicate the location of the sound.
The rendering algorithm is selectable - DBAP is used for unusual speaker
arrangements, like an art installation ’tunnel’ that we are currently
setting up. But you can select VBAP if the speakers are arranged on a
sphere. Big thank you’s to Trond Lossius and Ville Pulkki who made their
algorithms freely available!!
A long overdue and pleasurable task is to use Max with Immergo. Currently
using the Reaper DAW. I will keep you updated.
On 29 Jun 2017, at 11:38 PM, Augustine Leudar <
Thats pretty impressive Richard - I would definately consider this
system
in future for indoor stuff. In terms of interactive and automation - I
do
that in MaxMSP mostly - so we have things like an accelerometer on your
hand and wherever you point there is a sound etc etc - you also have a
map
of the speakers and pan around that map (using Dbap basically) - Ive
seen a
lot of third party systems that do automation etc - but I am already
pretty
happy with max for interactive 3D audio - theres nothing Ive found I
couldnt do yet ! But I guess I could integrate max easily enough with
the
AVB system.
Post by Richard Foss
One other thing - you mentioned wanting to move audio channels in real
time - you can move up to 32 channels around in the speaker space,
using a
Post by Richard Foss
client-server program called Immergo. The server runs on the Mac and
the
Post by Richard Foss
client on the Mac or a remote tablet - its web browser based, so you
type
Post by Richard Foss
in a URL. You successively select tracks and move them around a
representation of your speaker space. You can record and play back the
movements. The movements are realized via mixer matrices in the
speakers.
Post by Richard Foss
So its two different approaches you can use - pre-prepared channels
with
Post by Richard Foss
movement incorporated (guess you would use the terminology ‘bed
channels’)
Post by Richard Foss
or channels that can be moved via the mixer matrices (object audio
style),
Post by Richard Foss
where metadata containing time stamped 3D coords is recorded.
Richard.
Post by Richard Foss
That’s correct Augustine - just the Ethernet out the Mac. That will go
into an Ethernet AVB compliant PoE+ switch (extreme, netgear etc).
Post by Richard Foss
The SPK-4Ps will be connected to other ports of the switch. You can
link
Post by Richard Foss
together switches for larger port numbers.
Post by Richard Foss
On 29 Jun 2017, at 10:25 PM, Augustine Leudar <
Hi Richard -
So if I have this right no interface is required - just the ethernet
out of
Post by Richard Foss
the mac ?
can you daisy chain them (as discrete channels) or would you have
to
Post by Richard Foss
run
Post by Richard Foss
a seperate ethernet cable to each one?
You would run a separate Ethernet cable from a switch to each one.
So
Post by Richard Foss
for
Post by Richard Foss
example, running a DAW on a Mac, you would output your tracks to the
outputs made available by the Mac AVB virtual audio entity, and each
speaker would listen to one of the outputs.
You would use PoE+, not PoE, and each speaker is powered by a Merus
audio
Post by Richard Foss
Eximo amplifier, providing 30W. With the Mac you could connect up to
120
Post by Richard Foss
speakers. You also have the possibility of connecting a separate
passive
Post by Richard Foss
speaker to the powered one, providing 2 x 15W.
http://www.technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp-
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/ <
http://www <
Post by Richard Foss
http://www/>.
Post by Richard Foss
technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp- <
http://technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp->
Post by Richard Foss
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/>
Richard.
On 29 Jun 2017, at 6:38 PM, Augustine Leudar <
aye - and that would kind of defeat the advantage of it - Ill
stick to
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
passive for now - Ive always found active speakers a bit of a pain
for
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
larger site specific stuff because you have to run power to them
as
Post by Richard Foss
well
Post by Richard Foss
as audio.
https://www.immersivedsp.com/products/spk-4p
but Im a bit unsure as to what exactly they can do - can you daisy
chain
Post by Richard Foss
them (as discrete channels) or would you have to run a seperate
ethernet
Post by Richard Foss
cable to each one ?
Post by Dave Hunt
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input
will
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet cable.
Perhaps
Post by Dave Hunt
for very small speakers with a low power digital amplifier, but
anything
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
decent would require mains (or DC batteries) to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Post by Dave Hunt
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
Post by Dave Hunt
designed in pre production for this installation and then its
just a
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I
do
Post by Richard Foss
are
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime
around
Post by Richard Foss
the
Post by Dave Hunt
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing
might
Post by Richard Foss
be
Post by Dave Hunt
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like
the
Post by Richard Foss
way
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet
cable.....
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
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Post by Richard Foss
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Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Augustine Leudar
2017-06-30 08:39:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
by the way have you already done this thing pointing the phone and
indicating a sound in 3d space - if so do you have a link to it ?
This is a pretty crappy video of very early prototype I did a few years ago
- but things have moved on a lot since this :


Post by Richard Foss
That sounds great Augustine, and fun! Certainly highlights the flexibility
and capability of Max/MSP.
Immergo uses the gyroscope of the smartphone/tablet for orientation determination.
The typical mode of working is to touch-move a sound source (circle)
around a representation of the sound space on the screen, for two
dimensional movement, and to tilt the device at the same time for the third
dimension. You can request that all three axes are provided by phone
orientation though. So then it would be like pointing the device to
indicate the location of the sound.
The rendering algorithm is selectable - DBAP is used for unusual speaker
arrangements, like an art installation ’tunnel’ that we are currently
setting up. But you can select VBAP if the speakers are arranged on a
sphere. Big thank you’s to Trond Lossius and Ville Pulkki who made their
algorithms freely available!!
A long overdue and pleasurable task is to use Max with Immergo. Currently
using the Reaper DAW. I will keep you updated.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Thats pretty impressive Richard - I would definately consider this system
in future for indoor stuff. In terms of interactive and automation - I do
that in MaxMSP mostly - so we have things like an accelerometer on your
hand and wherever you point there is a sound etc etc - you also have a
map
Post by Augustine Leudar
of the speakers and pan around that map (using Dbap basically) - Ive
seen a
Post by Augustine Leudar
lot of third party systems that do automation etc - but I am already
pretty
Post by Augustine Leudar
happy with max for interactive 3D audio - theres nothing Ive found I
couldnt do yet ! But I guess I could integrate max easily enough with the
AVB system.
Post by Richard Foss
One other thing - you mentioned wanting to move audio channels in real
time - you can move up to 32 channels around in the speaker space,
using a
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
client-server program called Immergo. The server runs on the Mac and the
client on the Mac or a remote tablet - its web browser based, so you
type
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
in a URL. You successively select tracks and move them around a
representation of your speaker space. You can record and play back the
movements. The movements are realized via mixer matrices in the
speakers.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
So its two different approaches you can use - pre-prepared channels with
movement incorporated (guess you would use the terminology ‘bed
channels’)
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
or channels that can be moved via the mixer matrices (object audio
style),
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
where metadata containing time stamped 3D coords is recorded.
Richard.
Post by Richard Foss
That’s correct Augustine - just the Ethernet out the Mac. That will go
into an Ethernet AVB compliant PoE+ switch (extreme, netgear etc).
Post by Richard Foss
The SPK-4Ps will be connected to other ports of the switch. You can
link
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
together switches for larger port numbers.
Post by Richard Foss
On 29 Jun 2017, at 10:25 PM, Augustine Leudar <
Hi Richard -
So if I have this right no interface is required - just the ethernet
out of
Post by Richard Foss
the mac ?
can you daisy chain them (as discrete channels) or would you have to
run
Post by Richard Foss
a seperate ethernet cable to each one?
You would run a separate Ethernet cable from a switch to each one. So
for
Post by Richard Foss
example, running a DAW on a Mac, you would output your tracks to the
outputs made available by the Mac AVB virtual audio entity, and each
speaker would listen to one of the outputs.
You would use PoE+, not PoE, and each speaker is powered by a Merus
audio
Post by Richard Foss
Eximo amplifier, providing 30W. With the Mac you could connect up to
120
Post by Richard Foss
speakers. You also have the possibility of connecting a separate
passive
Post by Richard Foss
speaker to the powered one, providing 2 x 15W.
http://www.technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp-
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/ <http://www
<
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
http://www/>.
Post by Richard Foss
technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp- <
http://technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp->
Post by Richard Foss
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/>
Richard.
On 29 Jun 2017, at 6:38 PM, Augustine Leudar <
aye - and that would kind of defeat the advantage of it - Ill stick
to
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
passive for now - Ive always found active speakers a bit of a pain
for
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
larger site specific stuff because you have to run power to them as
well
Post by Richard Foss
as audio.
https://www.immersivedsp.com/products/spk-4p
but Im a bit unsure as to what exactly they can do - can you daisy
chain
Post by Richard Foss
them (as discrete channels) or would you have to run a seperate
ethernet
Post by Richard Foss
cable to each one ?
Post by Dave Hunt
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input
will
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet cable.
Perhaps
Post by Dave Hunt
for very small speakers with a low power digital amplifier, but
anything
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
decent would require mains (or DC batteries) to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Post by Dave Hunt
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
Post by Dave Hunt
designed in pre production for this installation and then its
just a
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I
do
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
are
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime
around
Post by Richard Foss
the
Post by Dave Hunt
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing
might
Post by Richard Foss
be
Post by Dave Hunt
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like
the
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
way
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet cable.....
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Post by Dave Hunt
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Richard Foss
2017-06-30 09:23:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
That’s an inspiring video, thanks!

And many points of contact. A few years back we used the Microsoft Kinect to allow for hand control over sound localization, much like you appear to be using the wii in the video. This worked well, except for the fact that the user had to be positioned in a fairly confined area. The mobile device control removes this restriction.

Last year we used Unity and the Oculus with the LeapMotion controller to create a virtual room and move ‘grabable’ sound sources around it. We tried providing the audio over headphones using Unity’s capabilities, and also Immergo (DBAP) over speakers. Interestingly the test subjects preferred the external speakers.

Yes, I have used the phone’s orientation capabilities to indicate a sound’s localization, but don’t have a video of it. You can see the layout on the phone here:

https://www.immersivedsp.com/ <https://www.immersivedsp.com/>

Checkboxes at the bottom select the various axes. The purple circle can be touch-moved for two dimensions, and the white rectangle indicates height.The blue circles indicate already recorded tracks that move with the playback of the sound.

Would love to make the London demo and if possible will contact you, thanks!
Post by Augustine Leudar
by the way have you already done this thing pointing the phone and
indicating a sound in 3d space - if so do you have a link to it ?
This is a pretty crappy video of very early prototype I did a few years ago
http://youtu.be/7cmodvSM5jE
Post by Richard Foss
That sounds great Augustine, and fun! Certainly highlights the flexibility
and capability of Max/MSP.
Immergo uses the gyroscope of the smartphone/tablet for orientation determination.
The typical mode of working is to touch-move a sound source (circle)
around a representation of the sound space on the screen, for two
dimensional movement, and to tilt the device at the same time for the third
dimension. You can request that all three axes are provided by phone
orientation though. So then it would be like pointing the device to
indicate the location of the sound.
The rendering algorithm is selectable - DBAP is used for unusual speaker
arrangements, like an art installation ’tunnel’ that we are currently
setting up. But you can select VBAP if the speakers are arranged on a
sphere. Big thank you’s to Trond Lossius and Ville Pulkki who made their
algorithms freely available!!
A long overdue and pleasurable task is to use Max with Immergo. Currently
using the Reaper DAW. I will keep you updated.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Thats pretty impressive Richard - I would definately consider this system
in future for indoor stuff. In terms of interactive and automation - I do
that in MaxMSP mostly - so we have things like an accelerometer on your
hand and wherever you point there is a sound etc etc - you also have a
map
Post by Augustine Leudar
of the speakers and pan around that map (using Dbap basically) - Ive
seen a
Post by Augustine Leudar
lot of third party systems that do automation etc - but I am already
pretty
Post by Augustine Leudar
happy with max for interactive 3D audio - theres nothing Ive found I
couldnt do yet ! But I guess I could integrate max easily enough with the
AVB system.
Post by Richard Foss
One other thing - you mentioned wanting to move audio channels in real
time - you can move up to 32 channels around in the speaker space,
using a
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
client-server program called Immergo. The server runs on the Mac and the
client on the Mac or a remote tablet - its web browser based, so you
type
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
in a URL. You successively select tracks and move them around a
representation of your speaker space. You can record and play back the
movements. The movements are realized via mixer matrices in the
speakers.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
So its two different approaches you can use - pre-prepared channels with
movement incorporated (guess you would use the terminology ‘bed
channels’)
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
or channels that can be moved via the mixer matrices (object audio
style),
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
where metadata containing time stamped 3D coords is recorded.
Richard.
Post by Richard Foss
That’s correct Augustine - just the Ethernet out the Mac. That will go
into an Ethernet AVB compliant PoE+ switch (extreme, netgear etc).
Post by Richard Foss
The SPK-4Ps will be connected to other ports of the switch. You can
link
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
together switches for larger port numbers.
Post by Richard Foss
On 29 Jun 2017, at 10:25 PM, Augustine Leudar <
Hi Richard -
So if I have this right no interface is required - just the ethernet
out of
Post by Richard Foss
the mac ?
can you daisy chain them (as discrete channels) or would you have to
run
Post by Richard Foss
a seperate ethernet cable to each one?
You would run a separate Ethernet cable from a switch to each one. So
for
Post by Richard Foss
example, running a DAW on a Mac, you would output your tracks to the
outputs made available by the Mac AVB virtual audio entity, and each
speaker would listen to one of the outputs.
You would use PoE+, not PoE, and each speaker is powered by a Merus
audio
Post by Richard Foss
Eximo amplifier, providing 30W. With the Mac you could connect up to
120
Post by Richard Foss
speakers. You also have the possibility of connecting a separate
passive
Post by Richard Foss
speaker to the powered one, providing 2 x 15W.
http://www.technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp-
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/ <http://www
<
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
http://www/>.
Post by Richard Foss
technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp- <
http://technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp->
Post by Richard Foss
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/>
Richard.
On 29 Jun 2017, at 6:38 PM, Augustine Leudar <
aye - and that would kind of defeat the advantage of it - Ill stick
to
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
passive for now - Ive always found active speakers a bit of a pain
for
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
larger site specific stuff because you have to run power to them as
well
Post by Richard Foss
as audio.
https://www.immersivedsp.com/products/spk-4p
but Im a bit unsure as to what exactly they can do - can you daisy
chain
Post by Richard Foss
them (as discrete channels) or would you have to run a seperate
ethernet
Post by Richard Foss
cable to each one ?
Post by Dave Hunt
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input
will
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet cable.
Perhaps
Post by Dave Hunt
for very small speakers with a low power digital amplifier, but
anything
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
decent would require mains (or DC batteries) to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Post by Dave Hunt
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
Post by Dave Hunt
designed in pre production for this installation and then its
just a
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I
do
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
are
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime
around
Post by Richard Foss
the
Post by Dave Hunt
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing
might
Post by Richard Foss
be
Post by Dave Hunt
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like
the
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
way
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet cable.....
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Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Augustine Leudar
2017-06-30 09:29:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi Richard - Ive also being using the leap a lot - its great but a bit
buggy sometimes when you get outside the infrared area , you can see it
used in a big neolithic site here :

https://vimeo.com/217058501

I had a friend who used the connect which was also fine but a bit buggy.
Do you have a link to the stuff you did with the leap ?
anyway yes Ill message you near the time ,
best,
Gus
Post by Richard Foss
That’s an inspiring video, thanks!
And many points of contact. A few years back we used the Microsoft Kinect
to allow for hand control over sound localization, much like you appear to
be using the wii in the video. This worked well, except for the fact that
the user had to be positioned in a fairly confined area. The mobile device
control removes this restriction.
Last year we used Unity and the Oculus with the LeapMotion controller to
create a virtual room and move ‘grabable’ sound sources around it. We tried
providing the audio over headphones using Unity’s capabilities, and also
Immergo (DBAP) over speakers. Interestingly the test subjects preferred the
external speakers.
Yes, I have used the phone’s orientation capabilities to indicate a
sound’s localization, but don’t have a video of it. You can see the layout
https://www.immersivedsp.com/ <https://www.immersivedsp.com/>
Checkboxes at the bottom select the various axes. The purple circle can be
touch-moved for two dimensions, and the white rectangle indicates
height.The blue circles indicate already recorded tracks that move with the
playback of the sound.
Would love to make the London demo and if possible will contact you, thanks!
Post by Augustine Leudar
by the way have you already done this thing pointing the phone and
indicating a sound in 3d space - if so do you have a link to it ?
This is a pretty crappy video of very early prototype I did a few years
ago
Post by Augustine Leudar
http://youtu.be/7cmodvSM5jE
Post by Richard Foss
That sounds great Augustine, and fun! Certainly highlights the
flexibility
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
and capability of Max/MSP.
Immergo uses the gyroscope of the smartphone/tablet for orientation determination.
The typical mode of working is to touch-move a sound source (circle)
around a representation of the sound space on the screen, for two
dimensional movement, and to tilt the device at the same time for the
third
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
dimension. You can request that all three axes are provided by phone
orientation though. So then it would be like pointing the device to
indicate the location of the sound.
The rendering algorithm is selectable - DBAP is used for unusual speaker
arrangements, like an art installation ’tunnel’ that we are currently
setting up. But you can select VBAP if the speakers are arranged on a
sphere. Big thank you’s to Trond Lossius and Ville Pulkki who made their
algorithms freely available!!
A long overdue and pleasurable task is to use Max with Immergo.
Currently
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
using the Reaper DAW. I will keep you updated.
On 29 Jun 2017, at 11:38 PM, Augustine Leudar <
Thats pretty impressive Richard - I would definately consider this
system
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
in future for indoor stuff. In terms of interactive and automation - I
do
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
that in MaxMSP mostly - so we have things like an accelerometer on your
hand and wherever you point there is a sound etc etc - you also have a
map
of the speakers and pan around that map (using Dbap basically) - Ive
seen a
lot of third party systems that do automation etc - but I am already
pretty
happy with max for interactive 3D audio - theres nothing Ive found I
couldnt do yet ! But I guess I could integrate max easily enough with
the
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
AVB system.
Post by Richard Foss
One other thing - you mentioned wanting to move audio channels in real
time - you can move up to 32 channels around in the speaker space,
using a
Post by Richard Foss
client-server program called Immergo. The server runs on the Mac and
the
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
client on the Mac or a remote tablet - its web browser based, so you
type
Post by Richard Foss
in a URL. You successively select tracks and move them around a
representation of your speaker space. You can record and play back the
movements. The movements are realized via mixer matrices in the
speakers.
Post by Richard Foss
So its two different approaches you can use - pre-prepared channels
with
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
movement incorporated (guess you would use the terminology ‘bed
channels’)
Post by Richard Foss
or channels that can be moved via the mixer matrices (object audio
style),
Post by Richard Foss
where metadata containing time stamped 3D coords is recorded.
Richard.
Post by Richard Foss
That’s correct Augustine - just the Ethernet out the Mac. That will
go
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
into an Ethernet AVB compliant PoE+ switch (extreme, netgear etc).
Post by Richard Foss
The SPK-4Ps will be connected to other ports of the switch. You can
link
Post by Richard Foss
together switches for larger port numbers.
Post by Richard Foss
On 29 Jun 2017, at 10:25 PM, Augustine Leudar <
Hi Richard -
So if I have this right no interface is required - just the ethernet
out of
Post by Richard Foss
the mac ?
can you daisy chain them (as discrete channels) or would you have
to
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
run
Post by Richard Foss
a seperate ethernet cable to each one?
You would run a separate Ethernet cable from a switch to each one.
So
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
for
Post by Richard Foss
example, running a DAW on a Mac, you would output your tracks to
the
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
outputs made available by the Mac AVB virtual audio entity, and
each
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
speaker would listen to one of the outputs.
You would use PoE+, not PoE, and each speaker is powered by a Merus
audio
Post by Richard Foss
Eximo amplifier, providing 30W. With the Mac you could connect up
to
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
120
Post by Richard Foss
speakers. You also have the possibility of connecting a separate
passive
Post by Richard Foss
speaker to the powered one, providing 2 x 15W.
http://www.technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp-
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/ <
http://www
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
<
Post by Richard Foss
http://www/>.
Post by Richard Foss
technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp- <
http://technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp->
Post by Richard Foss
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/>
Richard.
On 29 Jun 2017, at 6:38 PM, Augustine Leudar <
aye - and that would kind of defeat the advantage of it - Ill
stick
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
to
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
passive for now - Ive always found active speakers a bit of a pain
for
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
larger site specific stuff because you have to run power to them
as
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
well
Post by Richard Foss
as audio.
https://www.immersivedsp.com/products/spk-4p
but Im a bit unsure as to what exactly they can do - can you daisy
chain
Post by Richard Foss
them (as discrete channels) or would you have to run a seperate
ethernet
Post by Richard Foss
cable to each one ?
Post by Dave Hunt
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input
will
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet cable.
Perhaps
Post by Dave Hunt
for very small speakers with a low power digital amplifier, but
anything
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
decent would require mains (or DC batteries) to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Post by Dave Hunt
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
Post by Dave Hunt
designed in pre production for this installation and then its
just a
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I
do
Post by Richard Foss
are
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime
around
Post by Richard Foss
the
Post by Dave Hunt
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing
might
Post by Richard Foss
be
Post by Dave Hunt
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like
the
Post by Richard Foss
way
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet
cable.....
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Richard Foss
2017-06-30 09:56:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Completely blown away by the video! This is truly wonderful and an exemplary use of immersive sound.

The leap motion/Unity project was a post grad project. I will send a paper on it to you by email. Just need to check with conference organizers whether I can make it more publicly available.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Hi Richard - Ive also being using the leap a lot - its great but a bit
buggy sometimes when you get outside the infrared area , you can see it
https://vimeo.com/217058501
I had a friend who used the connect which was also fine but a bit buggy.
Do you have a link to the stuff you did with the leap ?
anyway yes Ill message you near the time ,
best,
Gus
Post by Richard Foss
That’s an inspiring video, thanks!
And many points of contact. A few years back we used the Microsoft Kinect
to allow for hand control over sound localization, much like you appear to
be using the wii in the video. This worked well, except for the fact that
the user had to be positioned in a fairly confined area. The mobile device
control removes this restriction.
Last year we used Unity and the Oculus with the LeapMotion controller to
create a virtual room and move ‘grabable’ sound sources around it. We tried
providing the audio over headphones using Unity’s capabilities, and also
Immergo (DBAP) over speakers. Interestingly the test subjects preferred the
external speakers.
Yes, I have used the phone’s orientation capabilities to indicate a
sound’s localization, but don’t have a video of it. You can see the layout
https://www.immersivedsp.com/ <https://www.immersivedsp.com/>
Checkboxes at the bottom select the various axes. The purple circle can be
touch-moved for two dimensions, and the white rectangle indicates
height.The blue circles indicate already recorded tracks that move with the
playback of the sound.
Would love to make the London demo and if possible will contact you, thanks!
Post by Augustine Leudar
by the way have you already done this thing pointing the phone and
indicating a sound in 3d space - if so do you have a link to it ?
This is a pretty crappy video of very early prototype I did a few years
ago
Post by Augustine Leudar
http://youtu.be/7cmodvSM5jE
Post by Richard Foss
That sounds great Augustine, and fun! Certainly highlights the
flexibility
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
and capability of Max/MSP.
Immergo uses the gyroscope of the smartphone/tablet for orientation determination.
The typical mode of working is to touch-move a sound source (circle)
around a representation of the sound space on the screen, for two
dimensional movement, and to tilt the device at the same time for the
third
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
dimension. You can request that all three axes are provided by phone
orientation though. So then it would be like pointing the device to
indicate the location of the sound.
The rendering algorithm is selectable - DBAP is used for unusual speaker
arrangements, like an art installation ’tunnel’ that we are currently
setting up. But you can select VBAP if the speakers are arranged on a
sphere. Big thank you’s to Trond Lossius and Ville Pulkki who made their
algorithms freely available!!
A long overdue and pleasurable task is to use Max with Immergo.
Currently
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
using the Reaper DAW. I will keep you updated.
On 29 Jun 2017, at 11:38 PM, Augustine Leudar <
Thats pretty impressive Richard - I would definately consider this
system
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
in future for indoor stuff. In terms of interactive and automation - I
do
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
that in MaxMSP mostly - so we have things like an accelerometer on your
hand and wherever you point there is a sound etc etc - you also have a
map
of the speakers and pan around that map (using Dbap basically) - Ive
seen a
lot of third party systems that do automation etc - but I am already
pretty
happy with max for interactive 3D audio - theres nothing Ive found I
couldnt do yet ! But I guess I could integrate max easily enough with
the
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
AVB system.
Post by Richard Foss
One other thing - you mentioned wanting to move audio channels in real
time - you can move up to 32 channels around in the speaker space,
using a
Post by Richard Foss
client-server program called Immergo. The server runs on the Mac and
the
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
client on the Mac or a remote tablet - its web browser based, so you
type
Post by Richard Foss
in a URL. You successively select tracks and move them around a
representation of your speaker space. You can record and play back the
movements. The movements are realized via mixer matrices in the
speakers.
Post by Richard Foss
So its two different approaches you can use - pre-prepared channels
with
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
movement incorporated (guess you would use the terminology ‘bed
channels’)
Post by Richard Foss
or channels that can be moved via the mixer matrices (object audio
style),
Post by Richard Foss
where metadata containing time stamped 3D coords is recorded.
Richard.
Post by Richard Foss
That’s correct Augustine - just the Ethernet out the Mac. That will
go
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
into an Ethernet AVB compliant PoE+ switch (extreme, netgear etc).
Post by Richard Foss
The SPK-4Ps will be connected to other ports of the switch. You can
link
Post by Richard Foss
together switches for larger port numbers.
Post by Richard Foss
On 29 Jun 2017, at 10:25 PM, Augustine Leudar <
Hi Richard -
So if I have this right no interface is required - just the ethernet
out of
Post by Richard Foss
the mac ?
can you daisy chain them (as discrete channels) or would you have
to
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
run
Post by Richard Foss
a seperate ethernet cable to each one?
You would run a separate Ethernet cable from a switch to each one.
So
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
for
Post by Richard Foss
example, running a DAW on a Mac, you would output your tracks to
the
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
outputs made available by the Mac AVB virtual audio entity, and
each
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
speaker would listen to one of the outputs.
You would use PoE+, not PoE, and each speaker is powered by a Merus
audio
Post by Richard Foss
Eximo amplifier, providing 30W. With the Mac you could connect up
to
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
120
Post by Richard Foss
speakers. You also have the possibility of connecting a separate
passive
Post by Richard Foss
speaker to the powered one, providing 2 x 15W.
http://www.technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp-
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/ <
http://www
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
<
Post by Richard Foss
http://www/>.
Post by Richard Foss
technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp- <
http://technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp->
Post by Richard Foss
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/>
Richard.
On 29 Jun 2017, at 6:38 PM, Augustine Leudar <
aye - and that would kind of defeat the advantage of it - Ill
stick
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
to
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
passive for now - Ive always found active speakers a bit of a pain
for
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
larger site specific stuff because you have to run power to them
as
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
well
Post by Richard Foss
as audio.
https://www.immersivedsp.com/products/spk-4p
but Im a bit unsure as to what exactly they can do - can you daisy
chain
Post by Richard Foss
them (as discrete channels) or would you have to run a seperate
ethernet
Post by Richard Foss
cable to each one ?
Post by Dave Hunt
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input
will
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet cable.
Perhaps
Post by Dave Hunt
for very small speakers with a low power digital amplifier, but
anything
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
decent would require mains (or DC batteries) to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Post by Dave Hunt
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
Post by Dave Hunt
designed in pre production for this installation and then its
just a
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I
do
Post by Richard Foss
are
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime
around
Post by Richard Foss
the
Post by Dave Hunt
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing
might
Post by Richard Foss
be
Post by Dave Hunt
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like
the
Post by Richard Foss
way
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet
cable.....
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
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Augustine Leudar
2017-06-30 11:59:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Nice paper - I think the reason people prefer loudspeakers to headphone sin
this case is to do with the HRTFs - over speakers people get to use their
own personal HRTFs (discounting phanotm sources) whereas this isnt quite
figured out yet for headphones,
Post by Richard Foss
Completely blown away by the video! This is truly wonderful and an
exemplary use of immersive sound.
The leap motion/Unity project was a post grad project. I will send a paper
on it to you by email. Just need to check with conference organizers
whether I can make it more publicly available.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Hi Richard - Ive also being using the leap a lot - its great but a bit
buggy sometimes when you get outside the infrared area , you can see it
https://vimeo.com/217058501
I had a friend who used the connect which was also fine but a bit buggy.
Do you have a link to the stuff you did with the leap ?
anyway yes Ill message you near the time ,
best,
Gus
Post by Richard Foss
That’s an inspiring video, thanks!
And many points of contact. A few years back we used the Microsoft
Kinect
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
to allow for hand control over sound localization, much like you appear
to
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
be using the wii in the video. This worked well, except for the fact
that
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
the user had to be positioned in a fairly confined area. The mobile
device
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
control removes this restriction.
Last year we used Unity and the Oculus with the LeapMotion controller to
create a virtual room and move ‘grabable’ sound sources around it. We
tried
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
providing the audio over headphones using Unity’s capabilities, and also
Immergo (DBAP) over speakers. Interestingly the test subjects preferred
the
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
external speakers.
Yes, I have used the phone’s orientation capabilities to indicate a
sound’s localization, but don’t have a video of it. You can see the
layout
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
https://www.immersivedsp.com/ <https://www.immersivedsp.com/>
Checkboxes at the bottom select the various axes. The purple circle can
be
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
touch-moved for two dimensions, and the white rectangle indicates
height.The blue circles indicate already recorded tracks that move with
the
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
playback of the sound.
Would love to make the London demo and if possible will contact you, thanks!
On 30 Jun 2017, at 10:39 AM, Augustine Leudar <
by the way have you already done this thing pointing the phone and
indicating a sound in 3d space - if so do you have a link to it ?
This is a pretty crappy video of very early prototype I did a few years
ago
http://youtu.be/7cmodvSM5jE
Post by Richard Foss
That sounds great Augustine, and fun! Certainly highlights the
flexibility
Post by Richard Foss
and capability of Max/MSP.
Immergo uses the gyroscope of the smartphone/tablet for orientation
determination.
The typical mode of working is to touch-move a sound source (circle)
around a representation of the sound space on the screen, for two
dimensional movement, and to tilt the device at the same time for the
third
Post by Richard Foss
dimension. You can request that all three axes are provided by phone
orientation though. So then it would be like pointing the device to
indicate the location of the sound.
The rendering algorithm is selectable - DBAP is used for unusual
speaker
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
arrangements, like an art installation ’tunnel’ that we are currently
setting up. But you can select VBAP if the speakers are arranged on a
sphere. Big thank you’s to Trond Lossius and Ville Pulkki who made
their
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
algorithms freely available!!
A long overdue and pleasurable task is to use Max with Immergo.
Currently
Post by Richard Foss
using the Reaper DAW. I will keep you updated.
On 29 Jun 2017, at 11:38 PM, Augustine Leudar <
Thats pretty impressive Richard - I would definately consider this
system
Post by Richard Foss
in future for indoor stuff. In terms of interactive and automation -
I
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
do
Post by Richard Foss
that in MaxMSP mostly - so we have things like an accelerometer on
your
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
hand and wherever you point there is a sound etc etc - you also have
a
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
map
of the speakers and pan around that map (using Dbap basically) - Ive
seen a
lot of third party systems that do automation etc - but I am already
pretty
happy with max for interactive 3D audio - theres nothing Ive found I
couldnt do yet ! But I guess I could integrate max easily enough with
the
Post by Richard Foss
AVB system.
Post by Richard Foss
One other thing - you mentioned wanting to move audio channels in
real
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
time - you can move up to 32 channels around in the speaker space,
using a
Post by Richard Foss
client-server program called Immergo. The server runs on the Mac and
the
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
client on the Mac or a remote tablet - its web browser based, so you
type
Post by Richard Foss
in a URL. You successively select tracks and move them around a
representation of your speaker space. You can record and play back
the
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
movements. The movements are realized via mixer matrices in the
speakers.
Post by Richard Foss
So its two different approaches you can use - pre-prepared channels
with
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
movement incorporated (guess you would use the terminology ‘bed
channels’)
Post by Richard Foss
or channels that can be moved via the mixer matrices (object audio
style),
Post by Richard Foss
where metadata containing time stamped 3D coords is recorded.
Richard.
Post by Richard Foss
That’s correct Augustine - just the Ethernet out the Mac. That will
go
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
into an Ethernet AVB compliant PoE+ switch (extreme, netgear etc).
Post by Richard Foss
The SPK-4Ps will be connected to other ports of the switch. You can
link
Post by Richard Foss
together switches for larger port numbers.
Post by Richard Foss
On 29 Jun 2017, at 10:25 PM, Augustine Leudar <
Hi Richard -
So if I have this right no interface is required - just the
ethernet
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
out of
Post by Richard Foss
the mac ?
can you daisy chain them (as discrete channels) or would you
have
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
to
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
run
Post by Richard Foss
a seperate ethernet cable to each one?
You would run a separate Ethernet cable from a switch to each
one.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
So
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
for
Post by Richard Foss
example, running a DAW on a Mac, you would output your tracks to
the
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
outputs made available by the Mac AVB virtual audio entity, and
each
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
speaker would listen to one of the outputs.
You would use PoE+, not PoE, and each speaker is powered by a
Merus
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
audio
Post by Richard Foss
Eximo amplifier, providing 30W. With the Mac you could connect up
to
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
120
Post by Richard Foss
speakers. You also have the possibility of connecting a separate
passive
Post by Richard Foss
speaker to the powered one, providing 2 x 15W.
http://www.technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp-
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/ <
http://www
Post by Richard Foss
<
Post by Richard Foss
http://www/>.
Post by Richard Foss
technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp- <
http://technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp->
Post by Richard Foss
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/>
Richard.
On 29 Jun 2017, at 6:38 PM, Augustine Leudar <
aye - and that would kind of defeat the advantage of it - Ill
stick
Post by Richard Foss
to
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
passive for now - Ive always found active speakers a bit of a
pain
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
for
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
larger site specific stuff because you have to run power to
them
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
as
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
well
Post by Richard Foss
as audio.
https://www.immersivedsp.com/products/spk-4p
but Im a bit unsure as to what exactly they can do - can you
daisy
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
chain
Post by Richard Foss
them (as discrete channels) or would you have to run a seperate
ethernet
Post by Richard Foss
cable to each one ?
On 29 June 2017 at 17:04, Dave Hunt <
Post by Dave Hunt
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB
input
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
will
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet
cable.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Perhaps
Post by Dave Hunt
for very small speakers with a low power digital amplifier, but
anything
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
decent would require mains (or DC batteries) to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Post by Dave Hunt
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
Post by Dave Hunt
designed in pre production for this installation and then its
just a
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other
installations I
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
do
Post by Richard Foss
are
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime
around
Post by Richard Foss
the
Post by Dave Hunt
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB
thing
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
might
Post by Richard Foss
be
Post by Dave Hunt
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially
like
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
the
Post by Richard Foss
way
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet
cable.....
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
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Stefan Schreiber
2017-07-01 01:59:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Augustine Leudar
Nice paper - I think the reason people prefer loudspeakers to headphone sin
this case is to do with the HRTFs - over speakers people get to use their
own personal HRTFs (discounting phanotm sources) whereas this isnt quite
figured out yet for headphones,
I thought the same. But why should you "discount phantom sources"? Do
you pretend VBAP and DBAP don't work?


Stefan
Augustine Leudar
2017-07-01 02:05:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
No Stefan - they work fine.
Post by Augustine Leudar
Nice paper - I think the reason people prefer loudspeakers to headphone sin
Post by Augustine Leudar
this case is to do with the HRTFs - over speakers people get to use their
own personal HRTFs (discounting phanotm sources) whereas this isnt quite
figured out yet for headphones,
I thought the same. But why should you "discount phantom sources"? Do you
pretend VBAP and DBAP don't work?
Stefan
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Sampo Syreeni
2017-07-01 11:53:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Stefan Schreiber
Post by Augustine Leudar
Nice paper - I think the reason people prefer loudspeakers to
headphone sin this case is to do with the HRTFs - over speakers
people get to use their own personal HRTFs (discounting phanotm
sources) whereas this isnt quite figured out yet for headphones,
I thought the same. But why should you "discount phantom sources"? Do
you pretend VBAP and DBAP don't work?
Not to mention the whole of ambisonic theory. What it recreates
especially at the first order POA limit is an *exceedingly* rarefied,
distributed source. Something almost impossible to recognize as anything
having to do with directional localisation, if you only look at
physically defined quantities at the sweet spot. The correspondence is
so slight, there's a whole literature saying low order, classical
ambisonic couldn't possibly work because of what this and that
microphone signal looks like.

Yet it does. Surprisingly well, even. Far from optimal, of course,
because it *does* have to do with so very few resources. But it still
works. The Makita localisation theory at its base, while amazingly
simplistic, does make rather good use of the physical resources POA has
at its disposal, and help optimize its -- once again rather limited --
linear decoding machinery well beyond what you'd expect of it.

Not unlike how Blumlein's panning ideas work with respect to stereo
phantom sources. Them bridging stereo into frontal ambisonic, and
eventually further... ;)
--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - ***@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
Stefan Schreiber
2017-07-01 01:52:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Augustine Leudar
Hi Richard - Ive also being using the leap a lot - its great but a bit
buggy sometimes when you get outside the infrared area , you can see it
https://vimeo.com/217058501
I had a friend who used the connect
Kinect... ;-)

According to J. Joyce and if I remember well, you "can connect a Kinect
but you can't kinect a Connect".

8-)
Post by Augustine Leudar
which was also fine but a bit buggy.
Nothing is perfect. (Sigh...)

Best,

Stefan
Post by Augustine Leudar
Do you have a link to the stuff you did with the leap ?
You have to Jump! (s. Google)
Post by Augustine Leudar
anyway yes Ill message you near the time ,
best,
Gus
Post by Richard Foss
That’s an inspiring video, thanks!
And many points of contact. A few years back we used the Microsoft Kinect
to allow for hand control over sound localization, much like you appear to
be using the wii in the video. This worked well, except for the fact that
the user had to be positioned in a fairly confined area. The mobile device
control removes this restriction.
Last year we used Unity and the Oculus with the LeapMotion controller to
create a virtual room and move ‘grabable’ sound sources around it. We tried
providing the audio over headphones using Unity’s capabilities, and also
Immergo (DBAP) over speakers. Interestingly the test subjects preferred the
external speakers.
Yes, I have used the phone’s orientation capabilities to indicate a
sound’s localization, but don’t have a video of it. You can see the layout
https://www.immersivedsp.com/ <https://www.immersivedsp.com/>
Checkboxes at the bottom select the various axes. The purple circle can be
touch-moved for two dimensions, and the white rectangle indicates
height.The blue circles indicate already recorded tracks that move with the
playback of the sound.
Would love to make the London demo and if possible will contact you, thanks!
Post by Augustine Leudar
by the way have you already done this thing pointing the phone and
indicating a sound in 3d space - if so do you have a link to it ?
This is a pretty crappy video of very early prototype I did a few years
ago
Post by Augustine Leudar
http://youtu.be/7cmodvSM5jE
Post by Richard Foss
That sounds great Augustine, and fun! Certainly highlights the
flexibility
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
and capability of Max/MSP.
Immergo uses the gyroscope of the smartphone/tablet for orientation determination.
The typical mode of working is to touch-move a sound source (circle)
around a representation of the sound space on the screen, for two
dimensional movement, and to tilt the device at the same time for the
third
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
dimension. You can request that all three axes are provided by phone
orientation though. So then it would be like pointing the device to
indicate the location of the sound.
The rendering algorithm is selectable - DBAP is used for unusual speaker
arrangements, like an art installation ’tunnel’ that we are currently
setting up. But you can select VBAP if the speakers are arranged on a
sphere. Big thank you’s to Trond Lossius and Ville Pulkki who made their
algorithms freely available!!
A long overdue and pleasurable task is to use Max with Immergo.
Currently
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
using the Reaper DAW. I will keep you updated.
On 29 Jun 2017, at 11:38 PM, Augustine Leudar <
Thats pretty impressive Richard - I would definately consider this
system
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
in future for indoor stuff. In terms of interactive and automation - I
do
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
that in MaxMSP mostly - so we have things like an accelerometer on your
hand and wherever you point there is a sound etc etc - you also have a
map
of the speakers and pan around that map (using Dbap basically) - Ive
seen a
lot of third party systems that do automation etc - but I am already
pretty
happy with max for interactive 3D audio - theres nothing Ive found I
couldnt do yet ! But I guess I could integrate max easily enough with
the
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
AVB system.
Post by Richard Foss
One other thing - you mentioned wanting to move audio channels in real
time - you can move up to 32 channels around in the speaker space,
using a
Post by Richard Foss
client-server program called Immergo. The server runs on the Mac and
the
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
client on the Mac or a remote tablet - its web browser based, so you
type
Post by Richard Foss
in a URL. You successively select tracks and move them around a
representation of your speaker space. You can record and play back the
movements. The movements are realized via mixer matrices in the
speakers.
Post by Richard Foss
So its two different approaches you can use - pre-prepared channels
with
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
movement incorporated (guess you would use the terminology ‘bed
channels’)
Post by Richard Foss
or channels that can be moved via the mixer matrices (object audio
style),
Post by Richard Foss
where metadata containing time stamped 3D coords is recorded.
Richard.
Post by Richard Foss
That’s correct Augustine - just the Ethernet out the Mac. That will
go
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
into an Ethernet AVB compliant PoE+ switch (extreme, netgear etc).
Post by Richard Foss
The SPK-4Ps will be connected to other ports of the switch. You can
link
Post by Richard Foss
together switches for larger port numbers.
Post by Richard Foss
On 29 Jun 2017, at 10:25 PM, Augustine Leudar <
Hi Richard -
So if I have this right no interface is required - just the ethernet
out of
Post by Richard Foss
the mac ?
can you daisy chain them (as discrete channels) or would you have
to
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
run
Post by Richard Foss
a seperate ethernet cable to each one?
You would run a separate Ethernet cable from a switch to each one.
So
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
for
Post by Richard Foss
example, running a DAW on a Mac, you would output your tracks to
the
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
outputs made available by the Mac AVB virtual audio entity, and
each
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
speaker would listen to one of the outputs.
You would use PoE+, not PoE, and each speaker is powered by a Merus
audio
Post by Richard Foss
Eximo amplifier, providing 30W. With the Mac you could connect up
to
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
120
Post by Richard Foss
speakers. You also have the possibility of connecting a separate
passive
Post by Richard Foss
speaker to the powered one, providing 2 x 15W.
http://www.technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp-
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/ <
http://www
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
<
Post by Richard Foss
http://www/>.
Post by Richard Foss
technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp- <
http://technologyintegrator.net/article/immersivedsp->
Post by Richard Foss
integrates-merus-audio-eximo-amp-minidsp-spk-4p-speaker/>
Richard.
On 29 Jun 2017, at 6:38 PM, Augustine Leudar <
aye - and that would kind of defeat the advantage of it - Ill
stick
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
to
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
passive for now - Ive always found active speakers a bit of a pain
for
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
larger site specific stuff because you have to run power to them
as
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
well
Post by Richard Foss
as audio.
https://www.immersivedsp.com/products/spk-4p
but Im a bit unsure as to what exactly they can do - can you daisy
chain
Post by Richard Foss
them (as discrete channels) or would you have to run a seperate
ethernet
Post by Richard Foss
cable to each one ?
Post by Dave Hunt
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input
will
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet cable.
Perhaps
Post by Dave Hunt
for very small speakers with a low power digital amplifier, but
anything
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
decent would require mains (or DC batteries) to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Post by Dave Hunt
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
Post by Dave Hunt
designed in pre production for this installation and then its
just a
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I
do
Post by Richard Foss
are
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime
around
Post by Richard Foss
the
Post by Dave Hunt
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing
might
Post by Richard Foss
be
Post by Dave Hunt
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like
the
Post by Richard Foss
way
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet
cable.....
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Richard Foss
Post by Dave Hunt
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Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
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Sampo Syreeni
2017-07-01 08:24:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input will
require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet cable.
In practice that is probably true, but in theory it needn't be. You see
I've just been delving into some old time speaker design theory, and
would like to flaunt... ;)

Quite a number of variants of Power over Ethernet exist. If we only take
a look at the IEEE standardized variants, the minimum seems to be
something like 13 Watts of continuous power, after cable dissipation,
over the permitted cable length (cf. IEEE 802.3af-2003).

By modern standards that ain't a lot. You'd have to factor in amplifier
losses, low sensitivity drivers and whathaveyou. It'd seem that an
active speaker driven from such a power source would have to be pretty
quiet. Probably it will be as well, using modern designs which tend to
exchange power for sensitivity and small size.

However, if the only design margin you have to abide by is that 13W
total expenditure of already more or less regulated DC coupled power,
you can do much more. First, you put in two separately optimized class-D
amps, with peak efficiency in excess of 90% at full power. The first one
you use to drive a compression horn at MF/HF, at high voltage. The
second one you optimize for (relatively) high currents to an LF dynamic
woofer set of extremely wide area, again leading to high radiative
resistance, and so high sensitivity.

Going that way, you could in theory mimic many classical studio monitor
designs, from before the time when power was ample and to be wasted.
Those things were sensitive enough to make your head spin by modern
standards, simply because they had to be when driven by the time's
vastly underpowered amplifiers; at one time you were supposed to make do
with 10 Watts of electrical input power for 100 seats, and they did.
Wasting half of it using class-A amps, who knows how much in linear
power conversion and regulation, and even then not really going with the
highest of sensitivity in the speakers.

Engineering for the limited power conveyed by PoE is or should be a
return to the earlier times when available power was the relevant design
margin. As such the design should take note of how the high general
sensitivity of the time was derived. Borrow from the most successful
designs of that time, instead of inventing the wheel all over again,
square.

So, at least go with something like one of Klipsch's designs. The RF-7
is reputed to go to a bit over 100dB SPL at one metre, using 1W of
continuous power. There are also many other, wider band, more well
behaved and sometimes even more sensitive speaker designs out there,
from the days of yore. Things which were even considered suitable for
studio monitoring use, yet which will make an auditorium full of people
walk away at sustained 13 Watts.

The only slight nit with those thingies is their size. Typically,
nowadays, you'd expect something fed off an Ethernet socket to be
pocket-size. Extremely high sensitivity loudspeakers are anything but.
They fill walls. In the high end they require compression driver driven
horns which just can't be folded in any realistic way; the MF/HF unit
will reach back at least tens of centimetres in its normal application.
And then, despite the many attempts at folding a bass horn, that doesn't
really work too well either; you'd rather go from the high efficiency of
a horn loaded compression driver to a conventional cone of large
diameter at the low end.

Or rather a set of them. Big honkin' ones, with coherent radiative area
to spare. While it might seem counter-intuitive to use such big cones
and so many of them, driven by such little power, actually what you're
doing is exchanging extra efficiency in the *least* efficient part of
the chain (radiative conversion) into something even *less* linearly
manageable by current and even past standards (huge forces and wide
throws in bass cones, so as to rapidly compress lots of air in another
manner). After you tune your bass cones and their drive magnets somewhat
lighter while increasing their area, as such increasing their resistive,
radiative loading, suddenly you can drive unreal amounts of rather low
frequency noise into the environment even at transistor radio like power
outputs. (I'm only exaggerating a bit, here.) Certainly at the 13 watts
minus the slim efficiency margin of current class D amps, delivered by a
single standardized Ethernet wire carrying PoE (of many) to just one
(well-tuned) driver (of many), could basically drive you deaf, blind and
insane within a typical home.

...if the thing needed to do that wasn't so big in every way as to be
unimplementable by modern standards. The best, most sensitive studio
monitors I seem to recall seeing the specs for somewhere were, after
all, a metre and a half on both sides, closer to a metre thick, and in
addition flush mounted to a purpose built monitor room's front wall.
They perhaps just took a Watt of power to drive, and were nigh perfect
for their time (could be even better now in their particular
application, too), but then considering the extra baggage in excess of
the driving Ethernet cable... ;)

Still, there are lessons to be learnt from the earlier times, even with
regard to the design of more reasonable PoE driven amps and speakers.
Perhaps for very small speakers with a low power digital amplifier,
but anything decent would require mains (or DC batteries) to the
speaker.
I'm not too sure it would... ;)
The available current may power the DAC though.
Any competent mixed domain engineer of today can engineer the DAC into
the amplifier, or vice versa. They are no longer separate things at the
low end of the spectrum, and vice versa, at the high end of the
switching spectrum, we can also do a lot of things at the same time
which don't really seem like either power or signal conversion.
--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - ***@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
m***@mstvp.com
2017-06-29 16:10:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi,

This is an interesting discussion. Common, 802.3af P.O.E. is limited to 15w. Fine for a Raspberry Pi, DAC or DSP, but not enough for much amplification.

Michael Graves
***@mstvp.com
http://www.mgraves.org
o(713) 861-4005
c(713) 201-1262
sip:***@mjg.onsip.com
skype mjgraves


--------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations
From: "Dave Hunt" <***@btinternet.com>
Date: 6/29/17 11:04 am
To: ***@music.vt.edu

Hi,

I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input
will require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet
cable. Perhaps for very small speakers with a low power digital
amplifier, but anything decent would require mains (or DC batteries)
to the speaker.

The available current may power the DAC though.

Ciao,

Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
designed in pre production for this installation and then its just a
multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I do
are
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime
around the
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing
might be
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like the
way
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet cable.....
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Marc Lavallée
2017-06-29 16:48:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
The limit is actually more like 13W per device, according to:
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alimentation_%C3%A9lectrique_par_c%C3%A2ble_Ethernet
A Raspberry Pi and a DAC would use 5 to 6W, leaving 7-8W to a D-amp.
With efficient loudspeakers (and a few of them), 6W could enough
for a small public installation.

A hackish alternative would be to use only 2 pairs of a CAT5 cable
for a 100BT link (which is enough to stream audio), and use the 2 other
pairs to transmit power (as much as required).

Running speaker wires is also a valid solution...

--
Marc
Post by m***@mstvp.com
Hi,
This is an interesting discussion. Common, 802.3af P.O.E. is limited
to 15w. Fine for a Raspberry Pi, DAC or DSP, but not enough for much
amplification.
Michael Graves
http://www.mgraves.org
o(713) 861-4005
c(713) 201-1262
skype mjgraves
--------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [Sursound]
Multichannel players for permanent installations From: "Dave Hunt"
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input
will require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet
cable. Perhaps for very small speakers with a low power digital
amplifier, but anything decent would require mains (or DC batteries)
to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
designed in pre production for this installation and then its just
a multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I
do are
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime
around the
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing
might be
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like
the way
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet
cable.....
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Dave Malham
2017-06-29 17:30:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
If you don't mind using analog audio, Meyer do some very nice, waterproof
powered speakers (MM-4XP). They use a specially designed cable which
carries balanced audio and DC power. The connector is a bit fiddly to wire
up and they are not cheap but we got very good results from them in the
Morning Line project (
https://www.wallpaper.com/architecture/the-morning-line-sonic-temple-istanbul
)

Dave
Post by Marc Lavallée
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alimentation_%C3%A9lectrique_
par_c%C3%A2ble_Ethernet
A Raspberry Pi and a DAC would use 5 to 6W, leaving 7-8W to a D-amp.
With efficient loudspeakers (and a few of them), 6W could enough
for a small public installation.
A hackish alternative would be to use only 2 pairs of a CAT5 cable
for a 100BT link (which is enough to stream audio), and use the 2 other
pairs to transmit power (as much as required).
Running speaker wires is also a valid solution...
--
Marc
Post by m***@mstvp.com
Hi,
This is an interesting discussion. Common, 802.3af P.O.E. is limited
to 15w. Fine for a Raspberry Pi, DAC or DSP, but not enough for much
amplification.
Michael Graves
http://www.mgraves.org
o(713) 861-4005
c(713) 201-1262
skype mjgraves
--------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [Sursound]
Multichannel players for permanent installations From: "Dave Hunt"
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input
will require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet
cable. Perhaps for very small speakers with a low power digital
amplifier, but anything decent would require mains (or DC batteries)
to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
designed in pre production for this installation and then its just
a multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I
do are
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime
around the
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing
might be
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like
the way
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet
cable.....
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_______________________________________________ Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Augustine Leudar
2017-06-29 17:54:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
They look nice Dave - it would have to be a well funded project to afford
them though. I also wonder whether they could survie the sauna test for
years..... humidity and heat being the main problems.
Post by Dave Malham
If you don't mind using analog audio, Meyer do some very nice, waterproof
powered speakers (MM-4XP). They use a specially designed cable which
carries balanced audio and DC power. The connector is a bit fiddly to wire
up and they are not cheap but we got very good results from them in the
Morning Line project (
https://www.wallpaper.com/architecture/the-morning-line-
sonic-temple-istanbul
)
Dave
Post by Marc Lavallée
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alimentation_%C3%A9lectrique_
par_c%C3%A2ble_Ethernet
A Raspberry Pi and a DAC would use 5 to 6W, leaving 7-8W to a D-amp.
With efficient loudspeakers (and a few of them), 6W could enough
for a small public installation.
A hackish alternative would be to use only 2 pairs of a CAT5 cable
for a 100BT link (which is enough to stream audio), and use the 2 other
pairs to transmit power (as much as required).
Running speaker wires is also a valid solution...
--
Marc
Post by m***@mstvp.com
Hi,
This is an interesting discussion. Common, 802.3af P.O.E. is limited
to 15w. Fine for a Raspberry Pi, DAC or DSP, but not enough for much
amplification.
Michael Graves
http://www.mgraves.org
o(713) 861-4005
c(713) 201-1262
skype mjgraves
--------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [Sursound]
Multichannel players for permanent installations From: "Dave Hunt"
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input
will require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet
cable. Perhaps for very small speakers with a low power digital
amplifier, but anything decent would require mains (or DC batteries)
to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
designed in pre production for this installation and then its just
a multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I
do are
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime
around the
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing
might be
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like
the way
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet
cable.....
-------------- next part --------------
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Post by m***@mstvp.com
_______________________________________________ Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
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Post by m***@mstvp.com
_______________________________________________ Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University
Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK
'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Dave Malham
2017-06-30 12:23:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Well, they spent a year outside in Seville (not known for being cold), then
it was moved to Eminönü Square, Istanbul where it spent another long period
in hot (and salty) air, then it moved to Vienna, which is quite cold (!) at
times - now it's in Karlsruhe. The speakers seemed to do okay so I would be
more than happy to specify them again. But I know what you mean about "it
would have to be a well funded project" - fortunately it was, I think
moving it from site to site alone cost €250,000 a pop. Fun to do but I'm
glad I didn't have to worry about the finances :-)

Dave
Post by Augustine Leudar
They look nice Dave - it would have to be a well funded project to afford
them though. I also wonder whether they could survie the sauna test for
years..... humidity and heat being the main problems.
Post by Dave Malham
If you don't mind using analog audio, Meyer do some very nice, waterproof
powered speakers (MM-4XP). They use a specially designed cable which
carries balanced audio and DC power. The connector is a bit fiddly to
wire
Post by Dave Malham
up and they are not cheap but we got very good results from them in the
Morning Line project (
https://www.wallpaper.com/architecture/the-morning-line-
sonic-temple-istanbul
)
Dave
Post by Marc Lavallée
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alimentation_%C3%A9lectrique_
par_c%C3%A2ble_Ethernet
A Raspberry Pi and a DAC would use 5 to 6W, leaving 7-8W to a D-amp.
With efficient loudspeakers (and a few of them), 6W could enough
for a small public installation.
A hackish alternative would be to use only 2 pairs of a CAT5 cable
for a 100BT link (which is enough to stream audio), and use the 2 other
pairs to transmit power (as much as required).
Running speaker wires is also a valid solution...
--
Marc
Post by m***@mstvp.com
Hi,
This is an interesting discussion. Common, 802.3af P.O.E. is limited
to 15w. Fine for a Raspberry Pi, DAC or DSP, but not enough for much
amplification.
Michael Graves
http://www.mgraves.org
o(713) 861-4005
c(713) 201-1262
skype mjgraves
--------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [Sursound]
Multichannel players for permanent installations From: "Dave Hunt"
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input
will require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet
cable. Perhaps for very small speakers with a low power digital
amplifier, but anything decent would require mains (or DC batteries)
to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
designed in pre production for this installation and then its just
a multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I
do are
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime
around the
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing
might be
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like
the way
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet cable.....
-------------- next part --------------
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_______________________________________________ Sursound mailing
list
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
Post by m***@mstvp.com
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here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
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_______________________________________________ Sursound mailing
list
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
Post by m***@mstvp.com
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
_______________________________________________
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https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
here,
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University
Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK
'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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_______________________________________________
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https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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David Pickett
2017-06-30 14:24:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
then it moved to Vienna, which is quite cold (!) at times
Last week it was 34 C here!

David
Augustine Leudar
2017-06-30 16:24:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
its not the heat Dave - its the humidity (100 percent) that destroys
speakers , that and the ants . Who funded that ?
Post by Dave Malham
Well, they spent a year outside in Seville (not known for being cold), then
it was moved to Eminönü Square, Istanbul where it spent another long period
in hot (and salty) air, then it moved to Vienna, which is quite cold (!) at
times - now it's in Karlsruhe. The speakers seemed to do okay so I would be
more than happy to specify them again. But I know what you mean about "it
would have to be a well funded project" - fortunately it was, I think
moving it from site to site alone cost €250,000 a pop. Fun to do but I'm
glad I didn't have to worry about the finances :-)
Dave
Post by Augustine Leudar
They look nice Dave - it would have to be a well funded project to afford
them though. I also wonder whether they could survie the sauna test for
years..... humidity and heat being the main problems.
Post by Dave Malham
If you don't mind using analog audio, Meyer do some very nice,
waterproof
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
powered speakers (MM-4XP). They use a specially designed cable which
carries balanced audio and DC power. The connector is a bit fiddly to
wire
Post by Dave Malham
up and they are not cheap but we got very good results from them in the
Morning Line project (
https://www.wallpaper.com/architecture/the-morning-line-
sonic-temple-istanbul
)
Dave
Post by Marc Lavallée
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alimentation_%C3%A9lectrique_
par_c%C3%A2ble_Ethernet
A Raspberry Pi and a DAC would use 5 to 6W, leaving 7-8W to a D-amp.
With efficient loudspeakers (and a few of them), 6W could enough
for a small public installation.
A hackish alternative would be to use only 2 pairs of a CAT5 cable
for a 100BT link (which is enough to stream audio), and use the 2
other
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
pairs to transmit power (as much as required).
Running speaker wires is also a valid solution...
--
Marc
Post by m***@mstvp.com
Hi,
This is an interesting discussion. Common, 802.3af P.O.E. is
limited
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
Post by m***@mstvp.com
to 15w. Fine for a Raspberry Pi, DAC or DSP, but not enough for
much
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
Post by m***@mstvp.com
amplification.
Michael Graves
http://www.mgraves.org
o(713) 861-4005
c(713) 201-1262
skype mjgraves
--------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [Sursound]
Multichannel players for permanent installations From: "Dave Hunt"
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input
will require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet
cable. Perhaps for very small speakers with a low power digital
amplifier, but anything decent would require mains (or DC
batteries)
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
Post by m***@mstvp.com
to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
designed in pre production for this installation and then its
just
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
Post by m***@mstvp.com
a multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other
installations I
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
Post by m***@mstvp.com
do are
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime
around the
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing
might be
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like
the way
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet cable.....
-------------- next part --------------
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_______________________________________________ Sursound mailing
list
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
Post by m***@mstvp.com
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
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_______________________________________________ Sursound mailing
list
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
Post by m***@mstvp.com
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
here,
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University
Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK
'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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here,
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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_______________________________________________
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https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University
Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK
'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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_______________________________________________
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https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Dave Malham
2017-07-01 06:28:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Rats can be a nuisance as well ;-)

The organisation behind it was TBA21, which (I believe) provided the core
funding but with as much outside funding as they could gather. For
Istanbul,
https://www.wallpaper.com/architecture/the-morning-line-sonic-temple-istanbul
says it was

"sponsored by Francesca von Habsburg, international patron of the arts,
heir to the Thyssen Bornemisza Collection and founder of TBA 21
contemporary arts foundation, along with Turkey's Vehbi Koç Foundation."

which as far as I remember, is correct, though the same page does give
Chris Wilson as a Cabaret Voltaire founder which should be Chris Watson, of
course.

Dave
Post by Augustine Leudar
its not the heat Dave - its the humidity (100 percent) that destroys
speakers , that and the ants . Who funded that ?
Post by Dave Malham
Well, they spent a year outside in Seville (not known for being cold),
then
Post by Dave Malham
it was moved to Eminönü Square, Istanbul where it spent another long
period
Post by Dave Malham
in hot (and salty) air, then it moved to Vienna, which is quite cold (!)
at
Post by Dave Malham
times - now it's in Karlsruhe. The speakers seemed to do okay so I would
be
Post by Dave Malham
more than happy to specify them again. But I know what you mean about "it
would have to be a well funded project" - fortunately it was, I think
moving it from site to site alone cost €250,000 a pop. Fun to do but I'm
glad I didn't have to worry about the finances :-)
Dave
Post by Augustine Leudar
They look nice Dave - it would have to be a well funded project to
afford
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Augustine Leudar
them though. I also wonder whether they could survie the sauna test for
years..... humidity and heat being the main problems.
Post by Dave Malham
If you don't mind using analog audio, Meyer do some very nice,
waterproof
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
powered speakers (MM-4XP). They use a specially designed cable which
carries balanced audio and DC power. The connector is a bit fiddly to
wire
Post by Dave Malham
up and they are not cheap but we got very good results from them in
the
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
Morning Line project (
https://www.wallpaper.com/architecture/the-morning-line-
sonic-temple-istanbul
)
Dave
Post by Marc Lavallée
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alimentation_%C3%A9lectrique_
par_c%C3%A2ble_Ethernet
A Raspberry Pi and a DAC would use 5 to 6W, leaving 7-8W to a
D-amp.
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
With efficient loudspeakers (and a few of them), 6W could enough
for a small public installation.
A hackish alternative would be to use only 2 pairs of a CAT5 cable
for a 100BT link (which is enough to stream audio), and use the 2
other
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
pairs to transmit power (as much as required).
Running speaker wires is also a valid solution...
--
Marc
Post by m***@mstvp.com
Hi,
This is an interesting discussion. Common, 802.3af P.O.E. is
limited
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
Post by m***@mstvp.com
to 15w. Fine for a Raspberry Pi, DAC or DSP, but not enough for
much
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
Post by m***@mstvp.com
amplification.
Michael Graves
http://www.mgraves.org
o(713) 861-4005
c(713) 201-1262
skype mjgraves
--------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [Sursound]
Multichannel players for permanent installations From: "Dave
Hunt"
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
Post by m***@mstvp.com
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB
input
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
Post by m***@mstvp.com
will require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet
cable. Perhaps for very small speakers with a low power digital
amplifier, but anything decent would require mains (or DC
batteries)
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
Post by m***@mstvp.com
to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
designed in pre production for this installation and then its
just
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
Post by m***@mstvp.com
a multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other
installations I
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
Post by m***@mstvp.com
do are
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime
around the
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB
thing
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
Post by m***@mstvp.com
might be
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially
like
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Augustine Leudar
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
Post by m***@mstvp.com
the way
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet
cable.....
-------------- next part --------------
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Post by m***@mstvp.com
_______________________________________________ Sursound mailing
list
Post by Dave Malham
Post by Marc Lavallée
Post by m***@mstvp.com
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--
As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University
Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK
'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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--
As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University
Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK
'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Sampo Syreeni
2017-07-01 11:37:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Augustine Leudar
its not the heat Dave - its the humidity (100 percent) that destroys
speakers , that and the ants . Who funded that ?
Also what mostly throws off your naïve sound speed calculations.
Temperature and the humidity which typically goes along with it jointly
behave somewhat counter-intuitively when you input them into the full
wave equation, dealing with multiple mixed gases at the same time.

BTW, that brings to mind a totally unrelated thingy. It's a standard pop
physics question why does a boiling pot seem to go from higher to lower
sounding noise. Most plausible accounts of the phenomenon I've seen
speak high-falutin stuff about average sizes of bubbles and whatnot.

Then a theoretical physics friend of mine once offered a (seemingly)
quite different, unexpected and in hindsight obviously correct answer:
the viscosity of water drops just as that of pretty much any fluid we
consider normal while its temperature rises. When you input the two
numbers representing that into the relevant equations, your first order
approximation just drops out. If you want to do something second order
or further, you'll have to start speaking about bubble sizes and
whatnot, but they too scale with temperature and viscosity, at first
linearly around the phase transition from whence they come.

Goes to show, you're exactly right: a change of viewpoint from
temperature to humidity, from energy level to how water behaves in it,
often explains more and more simply than temperature by itself. 8)
--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - ***@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
Augustine Leudar
2017-07-01 11:54:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Sampo - its definitely the size of the bubbles ;)
Post by Augustine Leudar
its not the heat Dave - its the humidity (100 percent) that destroys
Post by Augustine Leudar
speakers , that and the ants . Who funded that ?
Also what mostly throws off your naïve sound speed calculations.
Temperature and the humidity which typically goes along with it jointly
behave somewhat counter-intuitively when you input them into the full wave
equation, dealing with multiple mixed gases at the same time.
BTW, that brings to mind a totally unrelated thingy. It's a standard pop
physics question why does a boiling pot seem to go from higher to lower
sounding noise. Most plausible accounts of the phenomenon I've seen speak
high-falutin stuff about average sizes of bubbles and whatnot.
Then a theoretical physics friend of mine once offered a (seemingly) quite
different, unexpected and in hindsight obviously correct answer: the
viscosity of water drops just as that of pretty much any fluid we consider
normal while its temperature rises. When you input the two numbers
representing that into the relevant equations, your first order
approximation just drops out. If you want to do something second order or
further, you'll have to start speaking about bubble sizes and whatnot, but
they too scale with temperature and viscosity, at first linearly around the
phase transition from whence they come.
Goes to show, you're exactly right: a change of viewpoint from temperature
to humidity, from energy level to how water behaves in it, often explains
more and more simply than temperature by itself. 8)
--
+358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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m***@mstvp.com
2017-06-29 17:22:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Actually, 802.11at Type 2 supports up to 25w, but requires more effort to source power. That is, newer more costly, switches or insertors.

The hack you describe isn't really so hack-ish, since there are a number of non-802.11 compliant approaches to POE. Including one that's capable of delivering up to 90 watts.

Here's a unique approach called Digital Electricity. https://voltserver.com/ They provide high-power and data over a simple 2-conductor pair. They claim 20x the power and distance of 802.11af solutions.

Cost is another matter.

Michael Graves
***@mstvp.com
http://www.mgraves.org
o(713) 861-4005
c(713) 201-1262
sip:***@mjg.onsip.com
skype mjgraves




--------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations
From: "Marc Lavall&eacute;e" <***@hacklava.net>
Date: 6/29/17 11:48 am
To: ***@music.vt.edu


The limit is actually more like 13W per device, according to:
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alimentation_%C3%A9lectrique_par_c%C3%A2ble_Ethernet
A Raspberry Pi and a DAC would use 5 to 6W, leaving 7-8W to a D-amp.
With efficient loudspeakers (and a few of them), 6W could enough
for a small public installation.

A hackish alternative would be to use only 2 pairs of a CAT5 cable
for a 100BT link (which is enough to stream audio), and use the 2 other
pairs to transmit power (as much as required).

Running speaker wires is also a valid solution...

--
Marc
Post by m***@mstvp.com
Hi,
This is an interesting discussion. Common, 802.3af P.O.E. is limited
to 15w. Fine for a Raspberry Pi, DAC or DSP, but not enough for much
amplification.
Michael Graves
http://www.mgraves.org
o(713) 861-4005
c(713) 201-1262
skype mjgraves
--------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [Sursound]
Multichannel players for permanent installations From: "Dave Hunt"
Hi,
I think that you'll find that an active speaker with an AVB input
will require more current than can be supplied over an ethernet
cable. Perhaps for very small speakers with a low power digital
amplifier, but anything decent would require mains (or DC batteries)
to the speaker.
The available current may power the DAC though.
Ciao,
Dave
Date: 28 June 2017 22:06:52 BDT
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent
installations
Hi Richard -
There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the
soundscape is
designed in pre production for this installation and then its just
a multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I
do are
interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime
around the
space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing
might be
good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like
the way
power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet
cable.....
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