Discussion:
Blue Ripple Sound & SN3D?
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Richard Furse
2016-08-10 10:53:33 UTC
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Hi there!



Blue Ripple Sound are wondering about changing their TOA plugins from FuMa
to SN3D (ACN), see http://www.blueripplesound.com/story/consultation-sn3d.
Does anyone have strong feelings on this?



Opinions, rants and raves appreciated, but I'd like to avoid kicking off
another format debate on this list - perhaps any interested folk could
respond using the email link on the page?



Many thanks,



--Richard

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Fons Adriaensen
2016-08-10 21:27:55 UTC
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Post by Richard Furse
Blue Ripple Sound are wondering about changing their TOA plugins from FuMa
to SN3D (ACN), see http://www.blueripplesound.com/story/consultation-sn3d.
Does anyone have strong feelings on this?
Just do it.

During the past months I've been explaining Ambisonics to some
people who are going to work on HOA based applications. All of
them are something like 20 years younger than FOA, and when they
think about Ambisonics theory that means arbitrary order. To them,
using anything but N3D, SN3D and ACN seems like a form of masochism.
Maybe because I made them work out X-axis rotation with FuMa in and
out as an exercise. None of them got it right.

Ciao,
--
FA

A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
Dave Malham
2016-08-10 21:46:30 UTC
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Awww, come on, a bit of mental exercise is good for the soul! :-) :-)

Well, that said, (and this maybe a shock to those that know me) I'm
gradually moving towards the view that FuMa may have had its day. The only
remaining reason really is compatibility with with earlier materiel and
Soundfield mics and that can be dealt with conversion code, so long as
everything is properly documented.

Dave
Post by Richard Furse
Post by Richard Furse
Blue Ripple Sound are wondering about changing their TOA plugins from
FuMa
Post by Richard Furse
to SN3D (ACN), see http://www.blueripplesound.
com/story/consultation-sn3d.
Post by Richard Furse
Does anyone have strong feelings on this?
Just do it.
During the past months I've been explaining Ambisonics to some
people who are going to work on HOA based applications. All of
them are something like 20 years younger than FOA, and when they
think about Ambisonics theory that means arbitrary order. To them,
using anything but N3D, SN3D and ACN seems like a form of masochism.
Maybe because I made them work out X-axis rotation with FuMa in and
out as an exercise. None of them got it right.
Ciao,
--
FA
A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Richard Furse
2016-08-11 09:46:02 UTC
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I was about to say that this is the sort of thing you get right once and
then never need to touch, but actually I did see a plugin out in the wild
recently with the conversion wrong!

On SN3D, my main worries are (a) losing compatibility with existing
material/projects/kit and (b) it's SN3D, not N3D (which we HAD been
considering and is used in MPEG-H). BUT - those are definitely very
manageable issues and well worth it if there's a strong enough consensus
that modern tools are all heading that way! What I'm really hoping doesn't
happen is that we change convention and then some amazing new toy emerges
using something different...

Thanks,

--Richard
-----Original Message-----
Dave Malham
Sent: 10 August 2016 22:47
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Blue Ripple Sound & SN3D?
Awww, come on, a bit of mental exercise is good for the soul! :-) :-)
Well, that said, (and this maybe a shock to those that know me) I'm
gradually moving towards the view that FuMa may have had its day. The only
remaining reason really is compatibility with with earlier materiel and
Soundfield mics and that can be dealt with conversion code, so long as
everything is properly documented.
Dave
Post by Richard Furse
Post by Richard Furse
Blue Ripple Sound are wondering about changing their TOA plugins from
FuMa
Post by Richard Furse
to SN3D (ACN), see http://www.blueripplesound.
com/story/consultation-sn3d.
Post by Richard Furse
Does anyone have strong feelings on this?
Just do it.
During the past months I've been explaining Ambisonics to some
people who are going to work on HOA based applications. All of
them are something like 20 years younger than FOA, and when they
think about Ambisonics theory that means arbitrary order. To them,
using anything but N3D, SN3D and ACN seems like a form of masochism.
Maybe because I made them work out X-axis rotation with FuMa in and
out as an exercise. None of them got it right.
Ciao,
--
FA
A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University
Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK
'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Fons Adriaensen
2016-08-11 19:23:21 UTC
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What I'm really hoping doesn't happen is that we change convention
and then some amazing new toy emerges using something different...
Consider it the other way round: _your_ amazing toys will have
their influence on others.

Ciao,
--
FA

A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
Fons Adriaensen
2016-08-11 19:17:46 UTC
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Post by Dave Malham
Awww, come on, a bit of mental exercise is good for the soul! :-) :-)
Agree with that. But having done that sort of mental exercise more
than once, IMHO the only good reason to inflict it on others is to
show that it's not very productive. BTW, the exercise was 3rd order
X-axis rotation. Of course, having a way to compute the N3D solution,
all it takes is to multiply the matrix left and right with the gain
factors and permutations. But there are lots of ways to get that
wrong.

OTOH, the conversion between N3D and SN3D that Richard worries about
is simple enough, it's just one easily computed gain factor per degree.

Ciao,
--
FA

A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
Dave Malham
2016-08-11 21:18:48 UTC
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Raw Message
Agreed on all counts.

Dave
Post by Fons Adriaensen
Post by Dave Malham
Awww, come on, a bit of mental exercise is good for the soul! :-) :-)
Agree with that. But having done that sort of mental exercise more
than once, IMHO the only good reason to inflict it on others is to
show that it's not very productive. BTW, the exercise was 3rd order
X-axis rotation. Of course, having a way to compute the N3D solution,
all it takes is to multiply the matrix left and right with the gain
factors and permutations. But there are lots of ways to get that
wrong.
OTOH, the conversion between N3D and SN3D that Richard worries about
is simple enough, it's just one easily computed gain factor per degree.
Ciao,
--
FA
A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
edit account or options, view archives and so on.
--
As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Politis Archontis
2016-08-11 07:53:51 UTC
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+1 for (S)N3D / ACN. To us newbies, as Fons mentioned :-), FuMa makes sense only for 1st-order, and then it is trivial to convert to the above if needed.

Best,
Archontis
Post by Richard Furse
Hi there!
Blue Ripple Sound are wondering about changing their TOA plugins from FuMa
to SN3D (ACN), see http://www.blueripplesound.com/story/consultation-sn3d.
Does anyone have strong feelings on this?
Opinions, rants and raves appreciated, but I'd like to avoid kicking off
another format debate on this list - perhaps any interested folk could
respond using the email link on the page?
Many thanks,
--Richard
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Steven Boardman
2016-08-11 09:36:22 UTC
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+1 from me too.

One standard makes it easier for everyone, Less confusing and less time consuming.
How many conversions does one has to do, just to use different plugins in the same chain?
I’ve been caught out a few times when checking rigs, only to realise the content has a different channel order…
Obviously legacy recordings are FuMa, but it will be easier to deal with them, by saying, “If it’s old, convert to SN3D-ACN…”

Steve
Post by Politis Archontis
+1 for (S)N3D / ACN. To us newbies, as Fons mentioned :-), FuMa makes sense only for 1st-order, and then it is trivial to convert to the above if needed.
Best,
Archontis
Post by Richard Furse
Hi there!
Blue Ripple Sound are wondering about changing their TOA plugins from FuMa
to SN3D (ACN), see http://www.blueripplesound.com/story/consultation-sn3d.
Does anyone have strong feelings on this?
Opinions, rants and raves appreciated, but I'd like to avoid kicking off
another format debate on this list - perhaps any interested folk could
respond using the email link on the page?
Many thanks,
--Richard
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Sursound mailing list
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
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Richard Furse
2017-01-02 13:50:56 UTC
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Happy New Year!


An update on this:

We *did* switch from FuMa to SN3D at the end of last year and have renamed
the TOA plugins so they are now the "O3A" plugins. The renaming is mainly to
help with migration from existing projects.

This turned into quite a major release in the end ("Version Two") and we're
just tying up the loose ends now. We took the opportunity to update all the
GUIs (no more wood panels!) and have added a whole new toolkit ("O3A View")
for work with film, particularly 360 video for Virtual Reality. There are
some (confusing) screenshots here:
http://www.blueripplesound.com/story/view-screenshots-2017

Best wishes,

--Richard
-----Original Message-----
Richard Furse
Sent: 10 August 2016 11:54
Subject: [Sursound] Blue Ripple Sound & SN3D?
Hi there!
Blue Ripple Sound are wondering about changing their TOA plugins from FuMa
to SN3D (ACN), see http://www.blueripplesound.com/story/consultation-
sn3d.
Does anyone have strong feelings on this?
Opinions, rants and raves appreciated, but I'd like to avoid kicking off
another format debate on this list - perhaps any interested folk could
respond using the email link on the page?
Many thanks,
--Richard
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