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Multiple ambisonic microphone array?
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Matthew Barnard
2017-09-18 12:03:21 UTC
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Hi All,



Has anyone had any experience of utilising multiple ambisonic microphones in a spaced array for a recording?



I’m looking for any examples (and to hear of pitfalls) in prep for a potential project.



Thanks

Matt



Dr. Matt Barnard

University of Hull





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umashankar manthravadi
2017-09-18 12:25:58 UTC
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I thought of doing some thing like that = two Brahma first order microphones feeding into a Zoom F8. I proposed the idea to Angelo Farina who wrote back saying they had tried ot, but it was not satisfactory.

umashankar

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From: Matthew Barnard<mailto:***@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 5:33 PM
To: ***@music.vt.edu<mailto:***@music.vt.edu>
Subject: [Sursound] Multiple ambisonic microphone array?

Hi All,



Has anyone had any experience of utilising multiple ambisonic microphones in a spaced array for a recording?



I’m looking for any examples (and to hear of pitfalls) in prep for a potential project.



Thanks

Matt



Dr. Matt Barnard

University of Hull





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Matthew Barnard
2017-09-18 12:52:01 UTC
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Thanks Umashankar.

How about on a larger scale? I’m interested in crossfade/interpolation possibilities for music capture.

Appreciated,
Matt

Dr. Matt Barnard
University of Hull



On 18/09/2017, 13:25, "Sursound on behalf of umashankar manthravadi" <sursound-***@music.vt.edu on behalf of ***@hotmail.com> wrote:

I thought of doing some thing like that = two Brahma first order microphones feeding into a Zoom F8. I proposed the idea to Angelo Farina who wrote back saying they had tried ot, but it was not satisfactory.

umashankar

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Matthew Barnard<mailto:***@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 5:33 PM
To: ***@music.vt.edu<mailto:***@music.vt.edu>
Subject: [Sursound] Multiple ambisonic microphone array?

Hi All,



Has anyone had any experience of utilising multiple ambisonic microphones in a spaced array for a recording?



I’m looking for any examples (and to hear of pitfalls) in prep for a potential project.



Thanks

Matt



Dr. Matt Barnard

University of Hull





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Steven Boardman
2017-09-18 13:56:10 UTC
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I have thought about doing this.
It would need very good accuracy in placement, probably using equilateral
triangles. Distance would have to be taken into account, delay wise, and
probably frequency too. A zoom/move process would also be needed to
realign each of the soundfields to centre reference. By no means trivial ...

I am following this thread!

Best

Steve

On 18 Sep 2017 13:03, "Matthew Barnard" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
>
>
> Has anyone had any experience of utilising multiple ambisonic microphones
> in a spaced array for a recording?
>
>
>
> I’m looking for any examples (and to hear of pitfalls) in prep for a
> potential project.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> Dr. Matt Barnard
>
> University of Hull
>
>
>
>
>
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> ***@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
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Peter Lennox
2017-09-18 15:45:32 UTC
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I've rather simplistically used 3xSF mics, in a line, spaced approx. 25m (between no.1 and no.2 - hence spacing between 1 and 3 is 50m) to record adjacent 'cells', for replay in reciprocal fashion. The recorded venue was a choir in a cathedral, the replay in a large (but smaller than the cathedral!) foyer in the University. Visitors could then enter the 'virtual cathedral', move through the audience space, through the choir, out the other side - and the transformation of direct-to-indirect energy ratio was perceived appropriately for ambulant listeners, yielding appropriate changes in range perception as one approached sources. The odd local peculiarity due to precedence effects, but generally, the overall impressions were of a virtual space that one could move about in.
Cheers
ppl

Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts, Humanities and Education
School of Arts

e: ***@derby.ac.uk
t: 01332 593155

https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox

University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK

-----Original Message-----
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-***@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Boardman
Sent: 18 September 2017 14:56
To: Surround Sound discussion group <***@music.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multiple ambisonic microphone array?

I have thought about doing this.
It would need very good accuracy in placement, probably using equilateral triangles. Distance would have to be taken into account, delay wise, and probably frequency too. A zoom/move process would also be needed to realign each of the soundfields to centre reference. By no means trivial ...

I am following this thread!

Best

Steve

On 18 Sep 2017 13:03, "Matthew Barnard" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
>
>
> Has anyone had any experience of utilising multiple ambisonic
> microphones in a spaced array for a recording?
>
>
>
> I’m looking for any examples (and to hear of pitfalls) in prep for a
> potential project.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> Dr. Matt Barnard
>
> University of Hull
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
> scrubbed...
> URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/
> attachments/20170918/21ee8d77/attachment.html>
> _______________________________________________
> Sursound mailing list
> ***@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
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Peter P.
2017-09-18 15:04:07 UTC
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* Matthew Barnard <***@gmail.com> [2017-09-18 14:03]:
> Hi All,
>
>
>
> Has anyone had any experience of utilising multiple ambisonic microphones in a spaced array for a recording?
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Christian_Schoerkhuber/publication/274009006_WiLMA_a_Wireless_Large-scale_Microphone_Array/links/551276d60cf268a4aaea599b.pdf
and
http://alpsadriaacoustics.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Schoerkhuber_Hack_Zaunschirm_Zotter_Sontacchi_LOCALIZATION-OF-MULTIPLE-ACOUSTIC-SOURCES-WITH-A-DISTRIBUTED-ARRAY-OF-UNSYNCHRONIZED-FIRST-ORDER-AMBISONICS-MICROPHONES.pdf
come to my mind.
len moskowitz
2017-09-18 17:05:55 UTC
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Matthew Barnard writes:


> Has anyone had any experience of utilising multiple ambisonic
> microphones in a spaced array for a recording?



We've recommended using multiple TetraMics in spaced arrays to our
customers many times, and we mention it on our web site.


Perhaps the simplest is an ORTF array, decoding two TetraMics physically
spaced 17 cm apart, and each decoded to cardioids angled to an included
angle between them of 110 degrees.


There's no reason this technique can't be used with other spaced array
configurations.


Then there's the much more complex possibility of using many TetraMics,
uniformly distributed around a space, each dynamically tracking sound
sources, and interpolating (handing off) between them as sound sources
move around in the space. We know this may be possible.





Len Moskowitz (***@core-sound.com)
Core Sound LLC
www.core-sound.com
Home of TetraMic
Hyunkook Lee
2017-09-18 17:21:13 UTC
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Hello,

The attached papers of mine may be relevant to your question. PCMA, a surround mic technique I proposed and evaluated in the papers does not use multiple ambisonic microphones, but uses 5 pairs of coincident microphones arranged in a spaced array. The purpose is to control perceived front-back perspective (zoom in/out) creating a virtual microphone with a different polar pattern and direction at each pickup point. (see Figure 3 in the 2011 paper). The same technique can be used for surround recording with height (the secondary mic in each pair captures more ambience than direct sound and is therefore routed to a height channel for spatial impression).

Hope this is useful.

Hyunkook

=========================================
Dr Hyunkook Lee, BMus(Tonmeister), PhD, MAES, FHEA
Senior Lecturer in Music Technology
Leader of the Applied Psychoacoustics Laboratory (APL)
http://www.hud.ac.uk/apl
http://www.hyunkooklee.com
Phone: +44 (0)1484 471893
Email: ***@hud.ac.uk
Office: CE 2 /14a
School of Computing and Engineering
University of Huddersfield
Huddersfield
HD1 3DH
United Kingdom

________________________________________
From: Sursound [sursound-***@music.vt.edu] on behalf of len moskowitz [***@optonline.net]
Sent: 18 September 2017 18:05
To: ***@music.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multiple ambisonic microphone array?

Matthew Barnard writes:


> Has anyone had any experience of utilising multiple ambisonic
> microphones in a spaced array for a recording?



We've recommended using multiple TetraMics in spaced arrays to our
customers many times, and we mention it on our web site.


Perhaps the simplest is an ORTF array, decoding two TetraMics physically
spaced 17 cm apart, and each decoded to cardioids angled to an included
angle between them of 110 degrees.


There's no reason this technique can't be used with other spaced array
configurations.


Then there's the much more complex possibility of using many TetraMics,
uniformly distributed around a space, each dynamically tracking sound
sources, and interpolating (handing off) between them as sound sources
move around in the space. We know this may be possible.





Len Moskowitz (***@core-sound.com)
Core Sound LLC
www.core-sound.com
Home of TetraMic

_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
***@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
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This transmission is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you receive it in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and remove it from your system. If the content of this e-mail does not relate to the business of the University of Huddersfield, then we do not endorse it and will accept no liability.
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Matthew Barnard
2017-09-19 09:26:09 UTC
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Thanks all so far – very generous and helpful.


On 18/09/2017, 18:21, "Sursound on behalf of Hyunkook Lee" <sursound-***@music.vt.edu on behalf of ***@hud.ac.uk> wrote:

Hello,

The attached papers of mine may be relevant to your question. PCMA, a surround mic technique I proposed and evaluated in the papers does not use multiple ambisonic microphones, but uses 5 pairs of coincident microphones arranged in a spaced array. The purpose is to control perceived front-back perspective (zoom in/out) creating a virtual microphone with a different polar pattern and direction at each pickup point. (see Figure 3 in the 2011 paper). The same technique can be used for surround recording with height (the secondary mic in each pair captures more ambience than direct sound and is therefore routed to a height channel for spatial impression).

Hope this is useful.

Hyunkook

=========================================
Dr Hyunkook Lee, BMus(Tonmeister), PhD, MAES, FHEA
Senior Lecturer in Music Technology
Leader of the Applied Psychoacoustics Laboratory (APL)
http://www.hud.ac.uk/apl
http://www.hyunkooklee.com
Phone: +44 (0)1484 471893
Email: ***@hud.ac.uk
Office: CE 2 /14a
School of Computing and Engineering
University of Huddersfield
Huddersfield
HD1 3DH
United Kingdom

________________________________________
From: Sursound [sursound-***@music.vt.edu] on behalf of len moskowitz [***@optonline.net]
Sent: 18 September 2017 18:05
To: ***@music.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multiple ambisonic microphone array?

Matthew Barnard writes:


> Has anyone had any experience of utilising multiple ambisonic
> microphones in a spaced array for a recording?



We've recommended using multiple TetraMics in spaced arrays to our
customers many times, and we mention it on our web site.


Perhaps the simplest is an ORTF array, decoding two TetraMics physically
spaced 17 cm apart, and each decoded to cardioids angled to an included
angle between them of 110 degrees.


There's no reason this technique can't be used with other spaced array
configurations.


Then there's the much more complex possibility of using many TetraMics,
uniformly distributed around a space, each dynamically tracking sound
sources, and interpolating (handing off) between them as sound sources
move around in the space. We know this may be possible.





Len Moskowitz (***@core-sound.com)
Core Sound LLC
www.core-sound.com
Home of TetraMic

_______________________________________________
Sursound mailing list
***@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
University of Huddersfield inspiring tomorrow's professionals.
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This transmission is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you receive it in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and remove it from your system. If the content of this e-mail does not relate to the business of the University of Huddersfield, then we do not endorse it and will accept no liability.
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Brian FG Katz
2017-09-19 11:07:38 UTC
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We looked into something like this, though using synthesis not direct
recordings, some years ago. The processing isn't that complicated. This
articles points to some of the issues encountered in the idea.

N. Mariette, B. Katz, K. Boussetta, and O. Guillerminet, “SoundDelta : a
study of audio augmented reality using WiFi-distributed Ambisonic cell
rendering,” in Audio Eng Soc Conv 128, (London), pp. 1–15, 2010,
(http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=15420).

--
Brian FG Katz
Institut d'Alembert , Sorbonne Universités, UPMC Univ Paris 06, CNRS
http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz

-----Original Message-----
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 13:03:21 +0100
From: Matthew Barnard <***@gmail.com>
To: <***@music.vt.edu>
Subject: [Sursound] Multiple ambisonic microphone array?
Message-ID: <EC46A655-D7E3-4029-B901-***@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi All,
Has anyone had any experience of utilising multiple ambisonic microphones in
a spaced array for a recording?
I?m looking for any examples (and to hear of pitfalls) in prep for a
potential project.
Thanks
Matt

Dr. Matt Barnard
University of Hull
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